World Of Warcraft

I know, right? It gets worse when you read the companion short stories to the Burning of Teldrassil, when the Night Elf leadership comes across as incredibly arrogant and complacent.

I think people get confused because NEs are classically associated with that impossibly sexy lingerie model of a female Druid, so obviously they can't be anything other than woobie waifus or whatever. They are, in fact, rather primal and savage. Not savage in the "lives in mud huts" way, but in the "you come into our lands or mess with us and you will have more quills in you than a porcupine" way. They are very night-and-day (fittingly). Loyal to a fault in good times, but intensely vengeful in bad.

Shandris, Tyrande... they look at the other Alliance races like toddlers. They've lived thousands of years, and some human boy-king is not going to gainsay them when the existence of their race is on the line. I respect that, but it's going to lead to conflict.

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You're doing that thing again. That thing where you assume that every part of the story must be self-contained, with no loose ends or dangling threads for future content to pick up.

Yes, the war is over, but the reckoning for crimes and atrocities is not. The true conflict will never be finished until Sylvanas is dealt with. An argument can be made for the Horde who participated unwillingly in her atrocities, that they were following orders under duress. There's no such thing as a "conscientious objector" in Sylvanas' armies. But the ones who followed her willingly and enthusiastically: yeah, they've got some serious karma coming, and nobody would deny it to them.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Shandris does nothing but compliment her allies during the Alliance war campaign, so I really don't see how the two characterization work together.

And what's wrong with telling Lor'themar that her people know the terrain of Azshara better due to having fought there for thousands of years? That kind of first-hand experience sounds like a very good reason to argue for her expertise.

Edited by Resileafs on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:02:55 AM

I'm talking about the vengefulness. Shandris may compliment her allies, but she habitually regards the Horde as beasts fit only for extermination. This is going to make reconciliation difficult. It's sort of a running theme with the Night Elves, especially because they've been on the front lines for years in Ashenvale and have many wounds as a result.

There's some NPC dialogue in Boralus after the War Campaign is over, and among them is a NE ranger complaining that she could have taken a shot at Sylvanas and is upset that she wasn't able to. They don't give a toss about the rules of Mak'gora.

Genn, too, is not happy with the outcome of the rebellion. He wants Sylvanas' neck in his teeth, and feels that the Horde escaped too easily from the consequences of their crimes.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:04:42 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Oh hey, you're doing that thing again where you're defending the idea that an ongoing story cannot have conclusions and where stretching a plot out to include so many threads you can't resolve it within the scope you have available is somehow Good, Actually. I mean, I'm glad that I can officially have An Opinion once the expansion's set and done, only I'm sure there's going to be enough lingering plot threads that we're going to get more of this endless self-gratifying waxing about how the ungrateful morons just can't appreciate anything these days and the story's not done. I'm perfectly capable of evaluating a story now and later, thanks.

And we see the 'reckoning for crimes and atrocities' in Orgrimmar post-facto, with a whole bunch of cute vignettes about former loyalists effectively being rehabilitated on the grounds that hey, they were just following orders. And under what duress? We don't see Orgrimmar being on military lockdown. There aren't secret police forces dealing with dissenters outside of the ones who have actively turned tail (like Saurfang) or where they've demonstrated wrongdoing against the authority (Baine). There was no room to be a conscientious objector in Germany in 1945 either, somehow that didn't stop the prosecutions of the people who were 'just following orders.' Pike off with that shit.

Edited by math792d on Sep 26th 2019 at 5:12:05 PM

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

Right, because the story would be served well by Nuremberg-style war crimes tribunals. That'll kick the pacing into high gear.

Sylvanas actively murders dissenters. In the story. Personally.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:11:22 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Why is reconciliation the only option? Why can't the Night elves say "We have no interest or intention to interact with members of the Horde anymore and anyone who comes in our forests uninvited will be shot on sight"?

Oh yeah, and there's absolutely no way they could have gotten the same point across without tribunals or in a way that'd ratchet up the tension, and the only way to resolve the Night Elf story was a tepid fart in the wind while Anduin gets to wax poetic about an old, dead orc.

See, I can do blithe takes too. Look at me, enlightened master of debate.

Edited by math792d on Sep 26th 2019 at 5:13:19 PM

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

theres a difference between using "just following orders" as an excuse and "Literally if I dont follow orders sylvanas would execute my family publically"

shit, look what she did to Zelling just to piss on Baine's hopes.

that actually does seem to eb Tyrande's position, which is why i suspect the next conflict wont be with N'zoth, but with Tyrande and her followers trying to crash any attemopt at peace to murder as many people as possible.

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Sep 26th 2019 at 8:16:22 AM

Nobody said it's the only option. I'm sure there will be some excuse to retain PvP in the future of WoW regardless of how the faction system is overhauled (assuming that will happen, of course).

Pure speculation, but the game might allow you to choose whether you're a part of the die-hard group that will never accept peace, or the group trying to patch things up, with different NPCs/faction leaders taking different sides.

I'm not sure you and I played the same game, but Anduin has an optional dialog during the 8.2.5 campaign where he worries that Tyrande refused his summons. It does not go unaddressed. Anduin wants peace at all costs. Tyrande does not agree. This is potentially the seed of a new story thread that could carry forward into 9.x, especially if Genn sides with the Night Elves (as he has been wont to do in the past).

Put another way, I see the potential start of a "choose-your-faction" system, wherein you can elect to be part of the peaceful merger of the Horde and Alliance or of the groups that refuse to stop fighting.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:18:48 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

No, I secretly played the hit MMORPG 'World of Borkcraft,' in which all the races have been replaced with the dog breeds from Pugmire, what are you talking about?

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

Look, I'm not trying to antagonize you. I am saying that I don't believe that each and every crime that has happened on either side going back to the start of Warcraft must be individually and specifically prosecuted for the war to be officially declared over and peace to be acceptable.

Some degree of forgiveness is indicated — indeed, necessary — if the cycle of hatred is to end. And it's all but certain that some characters will not accept this, hence the seeds of future conflict.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:25:54 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Right, thats even that Jaina outright states allyside. A lot of people may not be ready to cast aside their legitimate grievances, but if we don't, the war will never stop until everyone is dead, and the current plot indicates both armies are so low on remaining troops and supplies that if the war goes on for much longer everyone will run out of soldiers completely.

There aint much point to a war when everyone is dead.

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Sep 26th 2019 at 8:36:33 AM

All that said, I'm really looking forward to seeing what 8.3 brings, because I'm all aboard the Old God Killin' train.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

I'm hoping the faction barrier drop is going to happen because I;d love to have my goblins or void elves be able to communicate with people on both factions

Same. Factions are fun to an extent but since I aesthetically prefer most of the Horde, and my main group of friends all main alliance, for the longest time I've either had to play alone with no people I trust to do group content with, or bite the bullet and play races whose aesthetics I'm not the fondest of. If the barrier dropped I'd finally be able to start doing mythics again at the minimum.

Edited by NaraNumas on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:58:47 PM

I don't see the faction barriers disappearing any time soon as the developers have consistently stated they aren't removing them. There's a also a divide right now, with many in the Alliance playerbase blaming the Horde playerbase for their actions in story.

I feel people don't complain about the story because they hate Wo W, but because they love Wo W and want the developers to hear their complaints. I feel if people had been more vocal to the writers, these controversial story elements may not have happened.

RE: Drupple Snubb

I discussed this in the past, it isn't an In-Universe Propaganda story, it was Jaina's own memory of events and this was after she had forgiven the Horde.

RE: Midgetsnowman

Lor'themar isn't a bad leader at all, but he isn't exactly an exemplar of the Horde's culture or ideals. Indeed in Mists of Pandaria, he even tried to leave the Horde and join the Alliance for the safety of the Blood Elves.

Thalryssa hasn't tried to join the Alliance, but again she's not an example of the Horde's culture.

The point of my post is that the original Orc/Troll/Tauren Horde is essentially dead right now; there is only the Darkspear trolls and one or two ancient artifacts of a bygone era. Orcs and Trolls have gone 5 and 4 straight expansions, respectively, with no racial leader and it shows in their lack of focus in the story.

RE: Fighteer

Genn's attack on the Horde in Legion was brushed under the rug and never mentioned again. Tyrande is depicted entirely sympathetically and even as a Horde player, I feel she is justified. I see no Alliance crimes the narrative acknowledges from Wo W.

I feel that Genn's attack on Sylvanas at Stormheim isn't scrutinized too heavily in-universe because Sylvanas was already putting her plans into motion and she didn't want the Horde to investigate what she had been doing in the first place.

That showcases a major part of the problem, the Horde has been so cartoonishly evil in the last 5 expansions, many of the things the Alliance does in direct response aren't morally grey at all.

More reasons why the current writing style needs a rehaul.

Or the Alliance could commit an atrocity such as firebombing Thunder Bluff or the Crossroads.

That actually happened Sturm and the narrative went out of its way to exclude it.

During Cataclysm, the Alliance firebombed Taurajo when only civilians were inside and the writers used the tauren's own leader to declare it a "valid military target", then proceed to demonize and then punish all survivors of the camp!

Edited by Monsund on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:00:04 PM

as for Lorthemar not being an example of the Hordes culture.

Of course he is. Thats the point. The whole sale "culture" the horde has been portrayed as since like fucking pandaria is that the Horde doesnt /have/ a unified culture like the alliance.

The Horde is a collection of cultures. The orcs, tauren, goblins, forsaken, elves, Pandaren. zandalari, maghar, and whatnot all have their own cultures and religious beliefs and ideals. And thats fine. theyre a pact for mutual defense and the freedom to live by those cultures without being forced to conform to one single cultural aesthetic.

Theyre far less homogenous than the alliance in that regard, and thats why both times a tyrant has tried to take over its caused massive internal strife, because you cant force a bunch of unruly and different people to play by one cultural ruleset without it eventually exploding in your face.

hell, thats even how lorthemar sold the Horde to Thalyssra, as that they were a group of people willing to let the Nightborne be the Nightborne , not conform to some internal standard of what nightborne could be.

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:15:59 PM

And rightly so. This is exactly what the developers intended by pushing War Mode at the same time as the Horde vs. Alliance focus in the BfA launch, along with the Burning of Teldrassil. They wanted Alliance players filled with righteous anger and engaging in world PvP, something the faction has frankly been lagging in.

I don't know if it's worked numerically. I will say that this expansion is the first time I've ever engaged in systematic world PvP on my main Alliance character. Honestly, the relative morality of the factions doesn't come into it more than trivially. I find Horde players in War Mode to be insufferably dickish and welcome the chance to get my own back. (I'm sure they'd say the same in reverse.)

And... so what? Are you suggesting Blizzard should turn off PvP because it's time for the widdle Hordies and widdle Alliancies to be happy little bestie friendies?

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And no, I'm pretty sure that people complain about the story because they have their own idea of what the game should be, and don't like that Blizzard thinks otherwise. That's a fairly standard bit of human nature, but the lack of self-awareness in that regard is depressing. There's also the problem I mentioned before, which is that hating on the story becomes a form of identity politics, with the corresponding cognitive dissonance leading people to become invested in the culture of being angry at Blizzard rather than objectively evaluating what's going on.

Aside from that, there's a huge problem in current consumer criticism of media (as opposed to professional criticism): the assumption that characters should act rationally and sensibly at all times, without any regard for their past decisions, their beliefs, or their established flaws. This assumption is then followed up by accusing professional writers of bad writing because they followed Watsonian rather than Doylist rules.

(This is not to say that Doylist writing isn't going on. If a story event needs to happen, then characters will do whatever it takes to make it happen regardless of In-Universe consistency. A mark of a good writer is making those actions consistent with previously established characterization. Blizzard hasn't always been great at this, I'll admit, but it's gotten a lot better lately.)

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Orcs have been through an identity crisis lately, to be sure, but this is not accidental or the result of laziness. Again, you seem to be having real difficulty understanding how deliberate, long-term writing decisions work. Everything Thrall said to Jaina in the "Crossroads" cinematic, and that Saurfang said to Anduin in the "The Negotiation" cinematic is designed to drive this home.

The Horde in general, and the Orcs in particular, were born in blood and demonic rage, and the concept of "honor" was used as a mask to cover up the existential horror of what they had done. Their leadership conflicts are symptomatic of this. Thrall could not bring the Horde to honor because he was never able, or willing, to face the truth. Garrosh embodied the opposite of Thrall: a reactionary throwback to the old Horde without any understanding of what he was attempting to create.

Vol'jin... yeah, Vol'jin got shafted, but in fairness, we aren't done with that story yet. There's something deeper going on with Bwonsamdi and the loa that is only hinted for now, but which we are all but certain to see return at some point.

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"Genn's attack on the Horde in Legion"... was unauthorized, yes. But it turned out to be a good thing he did, because Sylvanas was doing her Evil thing and trying to suborn all of the Val'kyr to her will, which would have let her raise Forsaken in nearly infinite quantities. Thank Elune for Genn's actions, there. Good doggie!

In all of this, you seem to be laboring under the notion that there needs to be, or should be, some kind of moral parity between Horde and Alliance. This is just plain false. Nobody owes you any such thing, and demanding that evil on one side be matched with an equal amount of evil on the other is nothing more than the same auto-erotic second-guessing of the writers that I mentioned earlier.

Blizzard is under no obligation to cater to your whims. If only you could understand this.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 26th 2019 at 3:23:06 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

this

also. just because one side has committed more immoral acts doesnt make it any more moral to kill civillians in cold blood, which especially with contracted goblin workers, the alliance is real willing to do. because war is hell, and there is no such thing as "parity" when people are dying, lots of innocents will die for the acts of others in a war, or just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

thats what Jaina and saurfang were getting at with the Cycle of hatred thing. There will never be a point where all grudges are satisfied unless either people choose to walk away from it, or everyone is dead.

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:24:34 PM

RE: Midgetsnowman

Its fine for Lor'themar and Thalyrssa to be basically be stand alone allies of the Horde, but thats the thing. The Horde used to have a fairly unified culture, arguably moreso then the Alliance.

Thrall's Horde, the Proud Warrior Race Guy collection of True Companions is dead. All that is left at this point is a few minor Darkspear Trolls and the elderly Eitrigg with nothing else, especially hope for the future. They have no major cast, the Proud Warrior Race Guy theme is dead , whilst the the True Companions theme is dead and replaced by a theme of uneasy allies.

The Alliance killing the Goblin workers was whitewashed in the accompanying novelization.

RE: Fighteer

No one ever had a problem with PVP, people have constantly criticized the writing throwing Horde characters into the grinder for the sake of a complete repeat of the Black-and-White Morality and Conflict Ball driven plot where the evil Horde is beaten by the passive and good Alliance.

Essentially the playerbase loves PVP, but hates the poorly received writing, complete absence of any moral nuance and Conflict Ball associated with the faction war storylines. Its not as if the story's faction war affects PVP in any way either.

The orcs having no characters is very much accidental, why do you think Eitrigg was so heavily retconned in Legion to make him a Dual Wielding Warrior when previously he was an elderly tactician? Why do you think they retconned the orcs history to make it so they did sexual slavery before the legion if not lack of knowledge of how to handle them?

Why do you think the orcs as a race have been completetly ignored for the last five expansions as anything other then villains or Thrall+Saurfang?

Edited by Monsund on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:30:15 PM

Noble savage is a fucking racist theme anyhow.

It assumes that wow, arent these people so proud in their primitive ways but grand ambitions, good for them, lets give them headpats.

The orcs and the tauren and the Trolls arent savages. They have cultures that are just as valid as stormwinds pretty cities and kul tiras' cutthroat political intrigue, and getting away from portraying the horde as magical native americans and shamanistic warriors who are implicitly noble because their huts are made of mud gets rid of one of the most unfortunate imp;ications of the standard fantasy story.

By your argument literally every other horde race from Goblins to elves to pandaren isnt savage and backward enough to really be the horde, and therefore are putting even the races you hold on a pedestal in a box of whats allowed and not allowed for them as a culture.

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:29:29 PM