World Of Warcraft

So wait, is the bad news that there's a revolution, or that it won't be datamined?

Yes

I'm glad they are going this route this time around.

I never liked the fact that the community as a whole tends to discover major plot points through out-of-context datamined broadcast text. Hiding cinematics helps, but the fact that most cinematics have follow-up conversations often means their big plot points get spoiled anyways. The Azshara cinematic might of actually had a better response from the community if we didn't already know for sure that N'Zoth was going to be released.

While public testing is obviously important, even sometimes for story content, I do think this is one of those cases where the benefits of keeping a lid on things is better than not.

I've seen some people make the argument that they need to know the outcome of 8.2.5 in order know if they should stay subbed, but honestly I don't really buy that argument. The only question that matters when deciding whether or not to stay subbed is "When I log into the game, am I likely to enjoy myself?". If the answer is no, then they should unsub, and if the answer is yes then they should stay subbed.

If the outcome of the War Campaign is going to have enough influence on someone's enjoyment of the game to determine this question, then they can make that decision just as easily after 8.2.5 comes out as they can now.

More or less. Loyalty to one's faction and/or leaders is admirable, but in the bottom line it's a game, that you play for enjoyment. If your sense of identity is so bound up in whether Sylvanas is justified in her actions that you'd quit the game if the writers disagree with you... well, you have a problem and I can't help you. I can, however, mock you on the Internet.

This reveal about 8.2.5 actually resolves one of my biggest concerns about the expansion: whether it would try to cram both the Sylvanas and N'Zoth conclusions into 8.3.0, resulting in a disjointed mess. It also answers the question of whether BfA would end with "Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0". Obviously it wasn't going to, but so many people jumped on that hate train and made it into a meme that I can now experience enormous satisfaction in them being proven wrong.

In slight fairness to those people, Blizzard was very deliberately teasing that the war would be the centerpiece of the expansion as a form of misdirection. ("There are no Old Gods in BfA...", which couldn't have been more blatant a lie if they'd said "wink, wink" out loud.) It makes me wonder what's so different between us that it was so obvious to me. I think that it comes down to people being unable to escape their preexisting biases about the quality of Blizzard's writing.

If anything, my current pique is that Azshara goes out with such a relative whimper. The boss fight is cool, don't get me wrong, and she's delightful in every appearance and bit of dialogue, but there's not nearly enough of it for a villain with such a deep and rich history. I want more Azshara. Here's hoping we get it in 8.3.0.

I'd also really like it if Blizzard could fix shard stacking via raid groups. Battle for Nazjatar and other PvP events are a lot less fun when you can simply put everyone from your faction into one shard to steamroll it, never mind what it does to the game's performance.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 13th 2019 at 9:19:21 AM

I do think it's a broader issue then specifically Sylvanas at stake. The fate of the Alliance-Horde conflict and how all of that gets resolved is a much bigger deal because that may define the shape of the entire franchise for years to come.

Though I will say that in general, I think people need to accept that if their enjoyment of a franchise is heavily tied to a single character or some other single component of the franchise, then they have to accept that it may one day leave them behind.

In an ongoing narrative characters are going to change, evolve, and undergo hardship. And sometimes being attached a character as they currently exist can blind someone to what is just a natural progression. The character that plague-bombed population centers in Cataclysm is very believably the character who burns them in BfA. A character who joined the Horde as an alliance of convenience after she backstabbed the last person she aligned with^note I know Garithos would of probably betrayed her eventually anyways, but the fact she jumped so quickly to negotiating in bad faith and then to murder when it came time to make good on the arrangement is indicative of how much she values her deals. It would of been a very different matter if she had given Garithos a token chance to make good on their deal., is quite capable of betraying the Horde if it suits her purposes.

To pose a question, now that we know the War Campaign will finish in 8.2.5, what do we hope will be included?

My big hope is that the confrontation at Thunder Bluff is resolved without significant bloodshed. We end the war by averting a big climactic battle, not fighting one.

Instead it will be focus on unraveling Sylvanas's motives and draging them into the light of day for all to see. Some details the players already know but the characters don't, Sylvanas kept the existence of Calia secret from the Forsaken and likely doesn't even know about her raising. Others will be unanswered questions like what powerful being wanted Sylvanas to be Warchief and for what purpose, and is that the same purpose Sylvanas herlself is working towards?

When these truths are revealed, one could say "all eyes are opened", Sylvanas's remaining support evaporates and flees. The Alliance and Horde then at least agree to a ceasefire to deal with N'Zoth.

I've never really been attached to Sylvanas, but for some reason I hope we get a conclusion like Varian Wrynn had where she's doing strange things because she's actually not behaving according to her own will, at least not fully. For example, the Val'kyr intentionally resurrected her wrong, like back in Gilneas where three sacrificed themselves to raise her and one hesitated before doing it. What if the one that hesitated did so not out of cowardice but because the plan made her uncomfortable?

Sylvanas being evil is not in the least bit strange to me, but the way she's being evil feels kind of off to me. That's probably just bad writing but eh, I'd think it neat if it was on purpose. Also, another Horde leader being crazy and evil rubs me the wrong way after Garrosh. Kael got done kinda dirty as well even while the writers went to a lot of effort to redeem Illidan. That left us with some nobody as blood elf leader.

On a side note, I've been going through the old Legion content lately to unlock pathfinder. I wish I'd been playing then, it seems amazing.

Speculation alert: I know none of the below for certain; it's all guesswork

My thinking all along has been that, while Sylvanas seems determined to control the Horde for herself, she has no loyalty to it. Rather, being Warchief comes in service of a purely personal motive: the preservation of her own existence, and by extension, the Forsaken. When Sylvanas is pressed, with the Horde in full revolt against her, my belief is that she will not fight, but will instead retreat to pursue her ultimate goal.

She now possesses Xalatath, and even though the being in that weapon is now free, its power and connection to the Void are unmistakable. I think she may use it to make some kind of strike against N'Zoth. Whether this succeeds or not, it will create an opening to the events of 8.3.0. I don't think she'll be killed in 8.2.5, either. She may become a part of the final raid. Whether she survives will obviously depend on whether Blizzard wants to keep her around for future content.

There will need to be a big climax to the War Campaign, and while we aren't expecting a new raid in 8.2.5, there may be a new Warfront or scenario in which we have the aforementioned confrontation. If it takes place at Thunder Bluff, that would be amazing.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 13th 2019 at 12:51:53 PM

My instinct is that we are looking at something mechanically simple so it doesn't demand any external testing.

It could be as simple as a bare-bones delivery mechanisms for a big cinematic (ie we go to Thunder Bluff, watch the cinematic, and then leave). Though I'm expecting something a bit more involved, but not to the level of a Warfront. In fact as I mentioned before I'd actually prefer the whole point to be averting a battle instead of fighting one. We need to decrease the level of animosity both within and between the factions.

Also on another note, the more I think about it, the more convinced that N'Zoth's message "All eyes shall be opened" refers to the grand revelations that will occur in 8.2.5.

EDIT—-

Something else to consider. The Wrathion questline has been on the PTR in a more or less completed state since the servers went up. However we don't actually know if it takes place before or after the conclusion of the War Campaign.

If it takes place before, then it is likely that Wrathion will actually be incorporated into the War Campaign finale. If it takes place after, then I think it's worth noting that the enemies we fight aren't labeled "Twilight Cultists" as we should expect, they are "Servants of N'Zoth". Therefore it's not unreasonable to conclude that N'Zoth is going to crash the party during the War Campaign by calling up everyone who accepted his "gift".

Edited by Falrinn on Sep 13th 2019 at 9:53:14 AM

You know, keeping with that logic - I wonder if we'll see another storyline split, replacing rebel vs. loyalist with champions of Azeroth vs those who kept N'zoth's "gift".

It'd be interesting if instead of the hazy conflict between Sylvanas and the rebels, if the players were given a genuine option to Face–Heel Turn to the Old God side.

Edited by NaraNumas on Sep 14th 2019 at 2:38:51 PM

Not gonna happen. The writing in Warcraft is typically pretty safe and linear.

Not sure that would really work in an MMO setting either. Seems more like something you could potentially see in a SP game.

Yeah, wouldn't work. Imagine having an MMO based on two opposing factions!

Jokes aside, I do think it's improbable. However, I think the game might move past the A/H faction system; an idea I had was that, after the Black Empire rises, the only territory Azeroth still holds is the Dragon Isles, so the dragonflights recruit us however they want to split it up (class, race, personal choice, etc.) and our "faction" becomes the dragonflight we serve.

I do like that idea. I do feel Wo W needs a shakeup in it's approach post-BFA.

Honestly I think the most likely option when it comes to changing the faction system is to deemphasize it.

So maybe you are still a member of the Alliance or Horde, and that still impacts the quests you can do and the cities you can make use of. However groups and guilds are opened up cross faction.

War Mode is the trickiest issue to resolve. The easiest solution would be if there is still a low level of fighting between the factions regardless of the official state (like maybe it's literally just Grumble Grimhammer and Usha Eyegouge and their followers fighting it out, who are overlooked by those maintaining the peace as long as they stick to fighting each other). Then we can keep War Mode as is, and just add a mercenary mode to keep the War Mode populations balanced.

The alternative is to create other factions that players side with for, among other things, the purposes of War Mode. The reason why I'm a little hesitant to go with the Light/Void route is because I think it should include a mercenary mode and the Light/Void conflict is even less compatible with people working both sides as the Horde/Alliance conflict is.

X5 Fair enough, I was gonna bring up Star Wars: The Old Republic but it was a victim of railroading the storyline regardless of good or evil - and it didn't polarize your faction.

I guess that City of Heroes was probably the one game that really succeeded in letting players Heel–Face Turn or Face–Heel Turn, but that was balanced by having previously established Hero/Villain factions.

Think the only MMO that jumps to mind that really let you play the bad guy and revel in it was Wildstar, and that game's story had issues with Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy that was worse than BfA's writing could ever conceivably touch short of letting the bad guys win (subjective as that statement is).

Edited by NaraNumas on Sep 15th 2019 at 4:16:59 AM

Yeah, I don't really think it's likely that players will ever really side with N'Zoth. Even my idea of N'Zoth calling up those who accepted his gift to form a new cult separate from the Twilights Hammer would exclude the player.

The concept of Light/Void aligned factions replacing the Horde/Alliance conflict would likely be more about a falling out between those who seek to control the void and those who wield the light. Rather than a conflict between the servants of the Void and the Light.

That's one thing I disliked about Wildstar. The Dominion which I think was supposed to be the Alliance equivalent of Wildstar was so damn unlikeable it wasn't even funny half of the time. The only time it was funny was to see how just ass backwards the Cassian humans were. The Exiles all were absolutely screwed over by the Dominion. The Mordesh lost their homeworld to a zombie apocalyspe and were barred from escaping from the Dominion, the Aurin are in a neverending hopeless war with the Dominion for their home planet that is so bad that the Queen of the Aurin can still feel the planets suffering all the way on the Nexus. And that was just the backstory of 2 of the races on the Exiles.

Making one side so dislikeable only people with evil is cool fetishes would like them did kind of kill the story part way. Anything bad the Exiles did to fight the Dominion usually came across as deserved because the Dominion was just that bad and over the top. Hell the Dominion tried to commit complete planetary genocide on two of the Exile's races, one for resources (the Aurin) and the other for completely fucking up their negotiations (the Granok).

Edited by Wispy on Sep 15th 2019 at 8:45:02 AM

actuaslly, if anything the rebellios plucky side was supposed to be the "alliance"

that said, if you actually played the dominion it was made clear that whole they werent perfect, their current leaders were trying to fix an empire where the previous leader had been a mad tyrant, and the exiles were basically terrorists who seemed to think it was perfectly a-okay to murder entire civillian populaces as long as it killed some nobles too.

Not to mention the mordesh thing was 100% undersdtandable. they literally are a race of fucking zombies, would you risk them breaking quarantine?

On a lighter note, I would say that if the overall Horde/Alliamce conflict wraps up with the War Campaign, I'd say there is an 80% chance the last line of the war campaign will be close to "The War between the Alliance and Horde is over, but the true Battle for Azeroth lies ahead".

Blizz made a post recently talking about how the Party Sync system is gonna work. If you played FFXIV you're probably familiar with it, it's basically level-syncing but in the overworld, you drop down to the cap for the content that you're doing to help a party member. You can also do "Replay Quests", which just lets you, well, replay quests you've already done. Also, dropping down does take away abilities and expansion features, so if you drop to say, 60 to help a friend level in Azeroth, you lose your 60+ abilities and Heart of Azeroth traits and powers.

The preview also ended with a very vague overture of 8.2.5's release date with a "within the next few months".

Edited by NaraNumas on Sep 16th 2019 at 3:29:54 AM

help when i used level sync to help my level 45 friend my demon hunter was deleted

The timeframe has actually been changed from "months" to "weeks" in the article.

Given this, I'm guessing an October 1st release, maybe October 8th. It's obviously too late for the patch to come out tomorrow and it doesn't feel like next week is a safe bet at this stage in the "preview cycle".

Otherwise, I'm glad the party sync feature scales you down to the maximum valid level for the content you are attempting, rather then to your synced level. By the time you hit level 60, most classes will at least have their core rotation intact.

Offical content notes posted for 8.2.5.

Starting to wonder if a September 24th release is in the cards. Though I'm still leaning towards October 2nd or 8th.

Also, here's the description of the War Campaign:

Tensions continue to rise between Saurfang, Anduin, and the Banshee Queen Sylvanas. Discover the fate of the Horde and Alliance in the final chapter of the War Campaign.

Yeah, this is going to be big.

Edited by Falrinn on Sep 17th 2019 at 1:24:10 PM

I kind of miss old Alterac Valley, but I think like old Vanilla wow it won't really return. People aren't gonna go around frantically trying to summon a giant frost elemental and using it to push through the enemy forces. And players can probably organize better and not get stuck at the Stormpike bridge for hours.