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Mar 13th 2019 at 4:50:59 PM

RE: Falrinn

Constructive criticism is not against the rules. I make posts like this because I want the story writers to eventually get the message.

They didn’t really admit Daelin was wrong. Not only was TFT a decade ago, but the recent official materials like comics go out of their way to vilify Rexxar. Note the Slasher Smile they give Rexxar and how Daelin is depicted as defenseless in this image.

BFA further vilified Rexxar as well, by having him bomb a civilian town for no given reason in Alliance questing.

The writers still depict ‘’’all’’’ current Alliance characters as 100% in the right, even when Halford Wyrmbane massacres defenseless troll ambassadors including the last of the neutral Shadowtooth tribe, the writers continue to depict them 100% in the right for such actions. Just as "Rogers" and "Twinbraid" are "always right as their Alliance", the writing for BFA did the same for Wyrmbane.

Yet we are supposed to side with Baine when he says the Alliance was as merciful to the Horde as possible to Talanji’s face, just as they expected Horde players to side with Baine for saying tauren civilians deserved being firebombed.

I don’t have faith in the ‘’current’’ writing team because they ignored what the Horde fanbase has wanted again and again.

That list of orc heroes is wrong as well.

  • We already discussed several times, Eitrigg’s treatment in Legion and BFA is massively Out of Character and makes no sense. He is too old to fight, let alone be a match for any of the Alliance’s cast of supermen.
  • Saurfang is good, but the writers are already discrediting him by making him an Unwitting Pawn of Anduin, who Hordeside is viewed as a Creator's Pet at best.
  • Geyh'rah is already vilified and prepared for the same treatment Zaela got in Mists, have you seen her reaction to Baine’s arrest as well as the “kill all Draenei” dialogue, she has recently been given?
  • Cromush is a minor NPC who rarely gets focus and the writers have already put him on the Sylvans side indicating he’s going to die.
  • Kaz the Shrieker is nice, but she's a minor character and no great hero.

Remember minor quest givers aren’t heroes. I’m talking about heroes who accomplish actions, show up in cutscenes, have lore, ETC.

Humans have a ton of them, orcs have only Saurfang and the soon to die Geyh'rah.

I’m criticizing their writing because I want it to change for the better and thats part of the reason why forums exist, to make your complaints clear so an Author's Saving Throw can occur in the future.

I think people who know about the Horde story and what the playerbase wants should overviewing the story. Its obvious the original writers like Metzen had a lot of love for the storyline, but the unfortunate thing is they are no longer writing for the game.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Mar 13th 2019 at 5:41:28 PM

This crap again. Daelin is not depicted as being in the right. Not even a little bit. You're either ignorant of the meaning behind the Jaina story line in BfA or deliberately misinterpreting it, and that invalidates the entire remainder of your argument, because now I assume it's being made in bad faith.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 13th 2019 at 8:41:40 AM

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Demetrios from Wheeling, Illinois Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Mar 13th 2019 at 5:49:15 PM

go out of their way to vilify Rexxar

What for? :S Rexxar was cool. cool

Die-cast construction! It's a lost art. :/
Mar 13th 2019 at 5:52:43 PM

RE: Demetrios

I think so too, but unfortunately the writers of BFA have really mishandled.

Whats also weird is they have Rexxar say Jaina has killed too many people, but then go out of their way to make Jaina look as good as possible, whilst going out of their way to make Rexxar look bad giving him like "the strong take him from the weak" or having his forces massacre Brennadam(originally done by Quilboar).

deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Mar 13th 2019 at 6:35:36 PM

There is a weird disconnect with Jainna. What they try and say about her at times, doesn't really match up with what they've shown.

It makes me wonder if there is a disconnect with the writers.

Demetrios from Wheeling, Illinois Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Mar 13th 2019 at 6:36:16 PM

I don't remember Jaina "killing too many people." Kalecgos talked her out of it before that happened.

Die-cast construction! It's a lost art. :/
Mar 13th 2019 at 6:42:13 PM

Here's an image.

Another weird line they gave Rexxar.

What makes this odd is there are plenty of awful things the Alliance has done to the Horde they can mention, but the writers ignore all of it.

Since MOP, its become an unofficial rule that anyone from the Alliance can do any bad to members of the Horde and never have it mentioned again.

RE: deludedmusings

The writers seem to be completely disconnected from what the player base wants anyhow.

Everyone made it clear that MOP storyline was loathed especially Hordeside, as was the whole faction war plot line and Baine's turn to Suicidal Pacifism.

Rather then listen, BFA continued to redo Mists of Pandaria and dial up everything the player base had been made clear they hated.

Edited by Monsund on Mar 13th 2019 at 6:43:51 AM

Falrinn Random Internet Person from A location definable in 4 dimensional terms
Random Internet Person
Mar 13th 2019 at 6:46:22 PM

I have played through the Jaina storyline more times then I care to admit.

And I will repeat this as many times as I have to:

Daelin is not treated as being in the right. The storyline concludes that he got himself killed because he was too stuck in his ways to listen to Jaina

I like liking things
Mar 13th 2019 at 6:53:03 PM

RE: Falrinn

If that is the case, then that doesn't change that the writers haven't had an Alliance character as genuinely antagonizing since a 16 year old game.

Where's the acknowledgement that Halford massacring ambassadors(ignoring diplomatic immunity) was wrong? When was the last time, the Horde PC was allowed to kill an Alliance target and feel good about it? Since MOP, the Horde PC is always treated in the wrong, whilst every Alliance character not from a 16 year old game is always right.

People have made this criticism clear, I feel the writers should finally listen to the criticism. If they can do a grey story, then show it.

deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Mar 13th 2019 at 6:53:25 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, when BFA first came out I responded to a point made that Blizzard has a bad history of being disconnected from their playerbase, not just Wo W, but a completely company wide issue.

[up][up] I haven't played it for a while, but wasn't the point basically telling Jaina "You can't save people from themselves."?

Edited by deludedmusings on Mar 13th 2019 at 11:53:39 PM

Mar 13th 2019 at 6:57:08 PM

RE: deludedmusings

For reference, Mists of Pandaria not only depicted a Dwarf who massacred an entire tauren tribe out of Fantastic Racism and killed goblin prostitutes as a innocent victim of the “evil” Horde, but Retcon Baine to have him say the Alliance's actions were justified then exile tauren civilians for defending themselves against Alliance military forces.

Nowdays, the writers are essentially constantly screaming why don't you love Baine to the Horde player base, while continually making the character shill the Alliance at the Horde's expense and refusing to admit his current portrayal is bad.

Edited by Monsund on Mar 13th 2019 at 8:24:10 AM

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Mar 13th 2019 at 8:35:28 PM

Heroic Jaina down tonight, for AotC!

It only took us 10 attempts in total, way fewer than Mekkatorque or Stormwall Blockade. We're two bosses ahead of our nearest competition. Next stop, Mythic progression, I assume.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 13th 2019 at 11:38:50 AM

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Wispy Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Mar 13th 2019 at 8:43:52 PM

I still feel like one of the worst treated technical Horde characters was Kael-Thas. I know they wanted to make an iconic character a cool raid/dungeon boss but I still feel his character was absolutely derailed in BC, comparably to Warcraft 3 where it was very clear he wanted to help his people. Him joining the Burning Legion after Tempest Keep just never made sense to me.

I do wonder if anything would of changed much over the course of the game's lifetime if he remained the Blood Elve's leader.

Its also more glaring considering Illidan was redeemed in a way, despite the fact he was never clear on his plans and that was always part of his character, whilst Kael was immediately tossed into unredeemable grounds despite having a very clear understandable goal.

Edited by Wispy on Mar 13th 2019 at 8:44:29 AM

I used to go by the troper handles/names, Ecrivan and Bleddyn.
Mar 13th 2019 at 9:17:23 PM

RE: Wispy

Even with the mountain of Horde characters that have been vilified and killed off over Wo W, Kael'thas stands out as a particularly tragic case.

Here's the list of notable Horde heroes who were victims of Sudden Sequel Heel Syndrome and/or Sudden Sequel Death Syndrome.

     Dead Horde Heroes 
  • Vol’jin: Killed off immediately after becoming warchief.
  • Cairne: Killed off by Magatha for Baine's story which ended up being an Aborted Arc which combined with Magatha being a Karma Houdini made his death even more pointless.
  • Zul’jin: Established as a Welll Intentioned Extremist genuinely out for the well being of his race as early as WC 2. He was also originally a member of the Revantusk which got forgotten after his death.
  • Kargath: In the original lore of WC 2-3, he was left on Azeroth with Grom and joined the New Horde before BC retconned him to be on Outland.
  • Kilrogg Deadeye: While his death in the Beyond the Dark Portal novelization was well written, he definitely got shortchanged in Wo D, which depicted him as a dimwitted brute. His veteran survivalist mindset is pretty unique among the orcs and he could be used to develop Jorin more. At the very least, delve into Jorin and his relationship with Kilrogg more, even if the latter stays dead.
  • Zaela: Big hero they were building up with a close friendship with a member of the Forsaken and Garona. The writers did a 180 and made her a racist straw man with no explanation in the widely hated Siege storyline, then killed her off.
  • Teron Gorefiend: Even he was depicted as genuinely loyal to the Horde, hating Gul'dan for betraying it, in contrast to the current evil characters the Horde has been forced to accept, who are both incompetent and disloyal.

It makes these faction war conflicts more pointless because while the Alliance has an army of superheroes from the RTS games, the Horde is left with a shrinking cast of nobodies. Sylvanas is effectively the only powerful Horde character left.

Imagine how much more interesting it would be if Kael'thas was alive and the Horde's supermage to counter Jaina?

Mar 13th 2019 at 9:28:56 PM

Yeah, even today the way Kael ended up is a sore spot for many people. Even Blizz themselves agree that they dropped the ball with him, and according to the character page the only reason they haven't brought him back for a redemption arc ala Illidan in Legion is because they already brought him back one for Magister's Terrace, and we all know how well that went for him.

Chronicle at least tried to fix things as much as it could be retconning it so Kael's descend into madness was due to Kil'Jaeden taking advantage of his growing distrust and dissatisfaction with Illidan (who was more concerned with preparing to invade Argus than literally anything else) by promising him a cure for the mana addiction and generally fucking with his mind. That, and the process that saved his life after Tempest Keep pretty clearly fucked him up even more. In Tempest Keep, he at least tried to keep up the charade that he was still ostensibly working for the sake of his people. By Magister's Terrace, he didn't even have that.

Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
Mar 13th 2019 at 9:31:10 PM

RE: Some New Guy

Can't say I'm fond of Chronicle's other changes though, like making the pre-Burning Legion orcs more evil or making the House of Nobles innocent.

Edited by Monsund on Mar 13th 2019 at 9:32:05 AM

Demetrios from Wheeling, Illinois Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Mar 13th 2019 at 11:19:30 PM

I like the new layout for the mage tower that you teleport to in Stormwind City. :)

Die-cast construction! It's a lost art. :/
DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Mar 14th 2019 at 5:06:38 AM

[up][up]

making the House of Nobles innocent.

What? What's next, "Garithos did nothing wrong"?

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Mar 14th 2019 at 1:06:56 PM

"Satire is meant to ridicule power. If you are laughing at people who are hurting, it's not satire, it's bullying."
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
Mar 14th 2019 at 6:33:57 AM

Garithos was at most given a freudian excuse.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Mar 14th 2019 at 7:04:11 AM

Which I still hate - I loved Garithos as a character because he didn't have an excuse.

He was an unrepentant human supremacist whose xenophobia drove away valuable allies - and this isn't just about the Blood Elves; he outright shit-talks his Dwarven reinforcement, to the point that one of them remarks: "They don't pay us enough to put up with that asshole."

Garithos was one of the best examples of how not everything's good and pure in the Alliance - heck, remember Uther's views on Orcs? He not only kicked Tirion Fordring out of the Silver Hand for not killing an Orc he met, but also told Arthas about how they should avoid becoming as savage as the Orcs.

"Satire is meant to ridicule power. If you are laughing at people who are hurting, it's not satire, it's bullying."
Mar 14th 2019 at 7:45:54 AM

RE: Drunken Nordmann

Chronicles literally retcons it so Onyxia had brainwashed the house of nobles not to pay the Stonemasons.

More of humans can do no wrong.

They also retconned Orc and Draenei relations from the two living peacefully, albeit separately as in Rise of the Horde, to the orcs frequently capturing and assaulting Draenei merchants, particularly females.

So in other words, more Alliance can do no wrong, Horde can do no right.

math792d The justification for everything from Tesladyne, LLC Relationship Status: Charming Titania with a donkey face
The justification for everything
Mar 14th 2019 at 9:16:53 AM

Saurfang is good, but the writers are already discrediting him by making him an Unwitting Pawn of Anduin, who Hordeside is viewed as a Creator's Pet at best.

I wouldn't say it's unwitting. Anduin up and lets him go. Saurfang knows full well Anduin wouldn't do that out of the goodness of his heart, and he's doing it to throw another spoke into the wheel of the Horde war machine. It's not even like he's trying to convince Saurfang to do it, he goes along with it because he wants 'his Horde back.' They have a common enemy, and that's as far as it goes.

[up] It's mentioned to be a small, mostly-inconsequential clan doing the raiding while the majority of the orc clans simply want nothing to do with the Draenei after they witnessed them mauling the ogres.

Edited by math792d on Mar 14th 2019 at 5:17:57 PM

The news that they have nothing to fear is guaranteed to strike fear into the hearts of innocents everywhere.
Demetrios from Wheeling, Illinois Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Mar 14th 2019 at 9:49:10 AM

Alliance can do no wrong

That made me remember something. Some of my fellow guild members that I had from a long time ago said the opposite; they said that the members of the Alliance like to screw each other over.

Die-cast construction! It's a lost art. :/
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
Demetrios from Wheeling, Illinois Relationship Status: Wishing you were here

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