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Nathanos got a lot of focus to begin with in Vanilla.
The only other forsaken who got focus were:
Lilian Voss became a racial leader is a stretch. Again look at what happened to the orcs and they had far more characters then Forsaken, yet after MOP, their racial story was pretty much gone for good and playable orcs existed only for gameplay.
Already Lilian is more neutral then anything and hasn't shown much interest in Horde, especially as a leader.
That people are pointing to Lilian, a random NPC who spent almost their lifespan as neutral before being clumsily shunted on Horde, shows how bad the lack of forsaken characters is. Again if you kill Sylvanas, what stops it from killing the Forsaken as a whole?
We already saw killing Garrosh killed orc lore with him.
Calia is Alliance, not Forsaken. Honestly I think the only reason people cared about her at all was because of Everything's Better with Princesses as she never showed any traits of a ruler, she even claimed she renounced all claim to Lordaeron and considered it dead in the past.
The Horde needs Horde characters, something it has almost nothing right now as the writers kept vilifying the Kalimdor Horde whilst saddling up the Horde as a whole with shady allies of convenience.
Edited by Monsund on Feb 11th 2019 at 9:27:29 AM
Lilian being neutral and more about going her own way I think is what would make her a better leader than Sylvanas. Sylvanas is all about being fanatically loyal while Lilian I think would encourage the Forsaken under her to find their own paths.
It would also be amusingly ironic that a former Scarlet Crusade assassin ended up becoming a leader of the Forsaken, if it happens.
I do agree that killing of Zelling so fast, and the Desolate Council before BFA was released was pretty shit though. Having more neutral or morally sound Forsaken to contrast and come to blows with the likely brainwashed fanatics and the Josef Mengeles to me would be more interesting to follow lorewise.
It also feels like a waste cause Baine did try to take the fall for Zelling but it didn't matter anyway cause reasons.
I am pretty sure the other faction leaders are getting second thoughts though and just aren't voicing it at the moment.
Edited by Wispy on Feb 12th 2019 at 2:35:08 AM
When it comes down to it, very few races have characters lined up that are both:
1. Prominent in the story in a leadership role, and has been for longer than an expansion.
2. In a clear position to take charge should the current racial leader be removed.
Let's take the Gnomes for example. Who takes charge now that Mekkatorque is out of commission indefinitely?
The only Gnomregan Gnome to get any real prominence in BfA is Kelsey Steelspark. ...Who is a stealth operative that has never lead anything larger than a small squad. There's also Tinkmaster Overspark from Legion...who again hasn't been shown in a leadership role and is basically Mekkatorque-lite anyways. If you want someone who has unambiguously lead something substantial, you are already down to very minor characters like Fizzle Brassbolts, who may of been important in the zones where they appeared, but haven't really impacted the wider narrative.
Edited by Falrinn on Feb 12th 2019 at 11:48:33 AM
Yeah, kind of an issue witgh a lot of races is having only ONE prominent npc
No, Horde needs leader that are actually loyal to it and its races. As it is right now, none of the Horde's racial leaders are specifically loyal to the Horde or its ideology.
Baine is more neutral then Horde and banishes tauren for self defense against Alliance criminals.
Gallywix is an amoral scumbag who goes against all the Horde's ideals.
Orcs have no leader.
Same for Trolls.
Lor'themar is again more neutral then Horde, though he is a good leader for the Blood Elves at least.
Gnomes are a bad example. Dwarves for example have several characters.
Again look at orcs after MOP, they never recovered from that expansion and now the race has little future left, especially notable as they used to be the Horde's humans, but while humans still have characters after characters to use like Halford Wyrmbane, Matthias Shaw, Turlayon, Danath, ETC, the orcs only have Eitrigg, right now after extensively Retconing of his characterization.
Doing this big rebellion storyline will destroy Forsaken lore.
How would she not be loyal the Horde's ideals? From my understanding a lot of the Horde's races are misfits that want a better life for themselves and to be left alone. Not this tyrant warmongering stuff under Garrosh and Sylvanas. Hell the Nightborne just want to explore and see how the world changed since they went into isolation.
I do agree though that Eitrigg and other big orc npcs like Rexxar were massively derailed. And the Baine thing didn't really make much sense at the time and still really doesn't now.
I think it's clear that you and I are on such different wavelengths regarding Warcraft lore and perhaps even more fundamentally on "how to best enjoy fiction", that it's unlikely we are ever going to agree on much beyond the occasional technical point.
Regardless, big news in the Warcraft community today. Pretty major restructuring at Activision Blizzard. The Warcraft dev team is expanding, but the community and publishing side of things got hit pretty hard. Hard to say exactly what this will mean in practice, though I imagine they'll keep doing the Dev Q As because Lore is still with the company and those are the most visible forms of community engagement.
Also a new build on the PTR.
- The "Alliance Wolf" datamined in the last build has been joined by a "Horde Horse" and both mounts are rewarded for completing both faction's War Campaign and main storyline.
- Kul Tirans and Zandalari got their dance emotes implimented
- Warlords of Draenor timewalking is open for testing
- Crucible of Storms had it's loot table added.
Haven't we already had Draenor timewalking? Or, if we did, did something go wrong during it?
Edited by sgamer82 on Feb 12th 2019 at 9:42:43 AM
I love how one of the Kul Tirans' joke quotes is basically "Yeah the Blood War is stupid as hell, but at least it finally let us and our homeland enter the plot!"
Say what you want about Blizzard, at least they're somewhat self-aware.
Since the exact words are "finally put Kul Tiras on the map", my interpretation is that it's meant as a Leaning on the Fourth Wall joke about the fact that Kul Tiras was a well known location in Warcraft lore...that was notably absent from the World Map in game.
Also, against my better judgement, I did a quick glance over at mmo-champ, and jesus, those guys will look for any excuse to complain.
Beta version of the Vol'dun Incursion: "WTF THE ALLIANCE WOULD NEVER DO THIS!"
Vol'dun Incursion is changed in live: "WTF WHY DID THEY CHANGE IT?! WHY CAN'T THE ALLIANCE HAVE ONE VILLAINOUS MOMENT?!"
I swear, this is why I tend to stay off forums aside from this one. >.>
Yeah, at least here people it's better to never engage are the minority.
Honestly I remember the discussion getting a little heated here regarding that particular plot point.
Though I will say that having finally had the chance to play through that quest on one of my Horde characters, the final version still depicts the Alliance in a very negative light. The Vulpera are absolutely livid that the Alliance presumes to have any right to attack them simply for taking work from the "wrong" group.
The only thing they really changed was ditched out-of-character level of villainy.
From what I have heard Kul'Tiras actually was meant to be a much much earlier expansion. Hell, it was suppose to come in place of TBC.
The reason why it didn't happen? Blizzard for some reason I don't know, I would assume it would of been spaghetti code, couldn't actually put another landmass on the Azeroth Map. The only way they could add more content was to put it on a completely different world map separate from Azeroth which is how TBC started.
The Emerald Dream was also supposed to be a full fledged expansion at some point. I am still honestly disappointed that that never happened as the Emerald Dream would be a really cool place for an whole expansion, atleast in my opinion based on the old lore of it.
Edited by Wispy on Feb 13th 2019 at 10:29:56 AM
I'm a-ok with the revision of the Vol'dun zone. It feels like the sort of 'meh, civilian casualties happen' excuses you see a lot in modern conversations of limited warfare.
The whole history of WoW is full of abandoned ideas that got to some stage of development and later appeared in some form. Pandaren were actually originally slated to be a playable Alliance-only race in Burning Crusade, and they got as far as making a static model for them.
And then there are the many cases of isolated elements suddenly getting thrown together with new lore,
like spirit healers being rogue Valkyr,
most of the original alliance races originating from titan structures affected by the curse of flesh,
Anubisath statues being Tol'vir
and most recently the Drust being an offshoot Vrykul tribe with a druidic connection to the Emerald Nightmare.
Edited by Kiefen on Feb 14th 2019 at 8:24:44 PM
Those are mostly expansions of existing lore, not retcons, but why should Blizzard not expand the lore with new content? It'd get really boring if they didn't.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 14th 2019 at 9:08:28 AM
Good thing Kiefen didn't call those story points retcons in their post then.
Another idea that got dropped in the past but got picked up is actually the Dragon Isles. They were originally slated to appear as a "level 65-70 raid" in classic (likely this was before things like classic's level cap was finalized...or what a raid actually was) that were located off the northern coast of Lordaeron and would feature "Temples to the Old Gods".
They actually got as far as some very rudimentary modeling before they were abandoned. After that there was no reference to them in the actual canon sources...until BfA when they were abruptly name dropped by Wrathion's agent in an Island expedition quest.
Hard to say how much the Dragon Isles that we end up going to will look like the Dragon Isles that were planned for classic, but it's something to think about.
Edited by Falrinn on Feb 14th 2019 at 6:35:27 AM
And there is stuff like kazaharan dugegon is really damn creepy and dark, or of course the well now azahara, which we have being expected since...forever, pretty much.
Honestly, I'm just amazed that its taken Azshara this long to become a major player in the story, considering she's been one of the setting's biggest villains since pretty much the beginning. Cataclysm hyped up her return but she doesn't even make a token appearance in Vash'jir, and her role in Aszuna is essentially a cameo at the very end of the story quests.
I think more was intended for Azshara and the naga in Cataclysm but that became an Aborted Arc. There was a whole plotthread where their giant octopus ate Neputlon, Elemental Lord of Neat Freaksnote Their filthiness stains me!, and he shows up no worse for wear in Legion.
Edited by sgamer82 on Feb 14th 2019 at 7:12:15 AM
Another abort and drop thing is conexion between lich king and yogg saron, the devs said there was one but never explain why.
the old gods seen to be drop off actually which is a shame I feel they are waaaaaay bettee villian than the legion.
Well considering how poorly Blizzard has done to hide that this so called Faction Conflict expansion is in fact the N'Zoth expansion...
There was supposed to be a Underwater raid at some point back in Vanilla as you can still find a raid portal underwater if you look in very early on versions of Azhara (the zone), I would assume that raid might of been the earliest naga raid if it ever came into fruition.
Their is also an whole area of Stratholme that was closed off since launch and never opened. It even has an untextured necropolis above it for some reason.
Another thing that disappointed me was the fact Azjol-Nerub was turned into an couple of instances instead of the original zone they were planning for it. I remember I always use to read about Azjol-Nerub in vanilla and BC and was really excited for the idea of it being a full fledged zone.
I did like the instances but would of loved more.
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