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Its not really anger so much as..apathy?
as for Vol'jin, I mean it sounds less like he wasnt innocent and more like something from beyond deaths door tricked him into giving sylvanas the reins
Edited by Midgetsnowman on Feb 11th 2019 at 11:58:26 AM
Like I said, we've only got the first few chapters of this book. It's irresponsible to write it off now.
Im not completely writing it off, but until theres more of the story i'm not particularly invested in my characters doing anything but hanging out in orgrimmar with my rp guild and not bothering to do quests that actively aid the banshee queen.
That's entirely your choice to make. What I'm trying to get across is that we don't know what outcome "helping Sylvanas" vs. not helping her will create. Also, we aren't working directly for her per se, although I'm not sure that it makes much of a difference given that our primary War Campaign questgiver is Nathanos, her little pet.
I've done just about all of the content Horde-side so far, and I've been enjoying the insights into the nature of the Forsaken: it certainly increases my understanding of the lore, and that's more than enough. To the extent that I'm RP'ing my character, he's a Forsaken Mage whose sympathies lie against Sylvanas and Nathanos but who is biding his time until he can do something meaningful about the situation.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 11th 2019 at 3:09:46 PM
Gallywix i can at least respect because his quests reveal he entirely knows and understands he;s a monster who made the war worse, he just doesnt /care/
for myself, as someone whose main is a Nightborne, she;'s basically just waiting for Thalyssra to say its time to revive the Dusk Lilies and start another insurrection. (which at least recent events suggest is probably something thalyssra is thinking about)
Edited by Midgetsnowman on Feb 11th 2019 at 12:11:07 PM
The interactions between Gallywix and Mekkatorque in Darza'alor (and in the War Campaign) are awesome, by the way. I hope the High Tinker survives; he hasn't gotten nearly enough prominence in the story to be blotted out like this.
I haven't played a Nightborne; it seems to me that Thalyssra would be feeling pretty sketchy about her decision to join the Horde given what's going on right now. That said, as an Alliance main, the quests in Zul'dazar where the dwarves freak out over "purple elves" are hilarious.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 11th 2019 at 3:15:45 PM
Datamined stuff related to the 8.1.5 events has Thalyssra seeing herself in Baine's shoes when she similarly spoke up against elisande and got an assasination attempt for her trouble, then deciding to go ask Lorthemar for advice.
it kinda all but says she;s already working on a response.
Lor'themar is so self-absorbed that it's amazing he's even able to see past his own reflection to notice the nastiness that has taken over the Horde.
Thalyssra's opinion of Sylvanas can't be that bad if she answered the burning of Teldrassil with participating personally to the war effort. :P
Its more that i dont think she had much of a choice at the time. backing out right away after just allying with the horde when we literally just murdered her former brethren the night elves would leave the nightborne exposed, alone, and surrounded by enemies. Also she had a personal stake in the survival of her friend, YOU, the Champion, the lady or man who helped save her homeland, when you;re effectively being sent on a goddamn suicide missiion
Better to just keep your head down and wait for a chance to strike because she tried open rebellion against elisande and her rebel faction nearly got smothered in its crib before it could even get going, only to be saved by our intervention.
As for lor'themar, he;s honestly a pretty good dude and good ruler. he;s deliberate and slow in his actions but he's always been on the right side of history when shit hits the fan. And I suspect he already has at least six exit strategies planned for turning on Sylvanas when the time is right.
Edited by Midgetsnowman on Feb 11th 2019 at 12:27:17 PM
So what you're saying is that Lor'themar's vanity is a facade designed to keep people from realizing he's a calculating schemer. Well, it's certainly worked.
So that's why the male blood elves' updated models wear smug grins; he's a trend setter. XP
Lor'themar has never come off as especially vain to me, jokey finger poke quotes aside.
Whenever he takes an active role in things, his primary concern is the week being of the blood elves.
see him at work during the throne of thunder quests, or during the ramp up to Vol'jins rebellion. Lor'themar is /constantly/ planning the next 3 steps. He's a general, a decorated one at that, who is only regent lord despite not wanting to be one, because his people need him, because their former rulers were assholes.
he's vain in jokeytext because lul elves, yep. When he;s actually doing shit, he's basically fucking Bright Noa of Gundam fame in elf form. No nonsense, cares about his people deeply, and has no time for stupid bullshit or bureacracy.
You see the same with Liadrin. Half the reason the Nightborne even joined the horde was Liadrins efforts at not only aiding the nightborne rebellion, but sending food and medical aid to civillians or effective anti-elisande propaganda campaigns
Edited by Midgetsnowman on Feb 11th 2019 at 12:40:57 PM
Lor'themar has always struck me as someone who will always try to act in his and his people's rational self interest.
That makes him potentially a very loyal ally because he recognizes the rational benefit of maintaining strong alliances. But it also means he's perfectly happy to stab someone in the back if the pros start to significantly outweigh the cons.
In the current situation, I think he recognizes that he's only going to directly defy Sylvanas exactly once, so if he's going to do it, he needs to make it count.
Edited by Falrinn on Feb 11th 2019 at 3:43:04 PM
Yep. That seems to be his tack on the situation. Play the loyal horde member until sylvanas presents the perfect opportunity. Then strike, and strike goddamn decisively.
Its kind of his thing.
In the datamined stuff he even basically said as much in the fallout to baine's actions . That he didnt fault baine, but the reaction needed to be cautious and deliberate
Edited by Midgetsnowman on Feb 11th 2019 at 12:59:07 PM
Hordeside, it really does seem like the writers are completely unaware of what the player base wants.
It seems like the writers can not write a character who is both:
Umm... I don't even know how to respond to that, because I can think of several off the top of my head, starting with Varok Saurfang.
Varok is working on Anduin's behalf now..
Even Gey'arah's being vilified right now.
Edited by Monsund on Feb 11th 2019 at 4:35:51 AM
Wow, way to completely ignore the story. Saurfang is not "working for Anduin". He is very clear about that. Now, Anduin may be attempting to use him as a way to disrupt Sylvanas' influence, but Saurfang himself is working for exactly one thing: the restoration of the honor of the Horde.
Its pretty clear at the very least, Saurfang is an Unwitting Pawn to Anduin, not exactly something that is good for faction pride.
Who are the several others you mentioned? The Horde's cast is at an all time low. What honor, there's virtually no one left in the Horde that cares about its ideology or culture?
The only character still used in BFA you could say is Rokhan and Eitrigg, but the latter is extremely elderly, even moreso then Saurfang and not long for the world.
Edited by Monsund on Feb 11th 2019 at 4:51:02 AM
Saurfang and Anduin have a shared interest. They both want to get rid of Sylvanas.
They have different reasons for wanting this to happen. Anduin getting rid of Sylvanas is a necessary step for peace, whereas Saurfang (in his own words) believes she is destroying the Horde.
Saurfang isn't Anduin's unwitting pawn anymore then Anduin is Saurfang's unwitting pawn. Which sounds utterly absurd, but Anduin countering Sylvanas on the battlefield helps weaken her hold on the Horde...which is exactly what Saurfang wants to happen. Obviously he wants the Horde to still be around and strong after the fact, but a lost battle is a price well worth paying if it means getting rid of Sylvanas.
However, I do believe there is merit to the idea that if Saurfang does succeed in deposing Sylvanas, then there should be an arc that shows without a shadow of a doubt that he (or whoever becomes Warchief next) are not puppets of the Alliance. There's a few different ways to do it, but the easiest way would be for the faction war to continue for a short time afterwards (likely this time spurred on by the more aggressive members of the Alliance).
There doesn't have to be an enormous amount of fighting, just enough to show that the Horde isn't going to end the war in a place of vulnerability.
Showing the Horde isn't the Alliance's puppet would be nice. What the writers really need to do is acknowledge the Alliance has hurt the Horde. Since Mists of Pandaria, the writers either pull The Dog Shot First or flat-out ignore Alliance crimes against the Horde.
What still needs to be addressed though is the lack of Horde characters. There is no second generation character currently alive that reprsents the New Horde, everyone is either extremely elderly, forgotten since Burning Crusade, or distant from Horde values.
Also if Sylvanas dies, what will the Forsaken have left? Wo W has been around for a decade, yet the Forsaken never got any characters aside from Sylvanas and Nathanos, note the latter took till Legion to receive prominence. All the Forsaken quotes and quest revolve around Sylvanas, even their racial icon is Sylvanas's face.
We saw how the orcs have been left in a state of ruin since Mists of Pandaria with no characters left and no roles to fill even in Legion. Unless Sylvanas is removed without being killed, everything points to the rebellion storyline furthering destroying the Horde.
You actually answered your own question in a way. If they did it with Nathanos, they can do it again.
Prior to Legion, Nathanos wasn't really all that important of a character, narratively speaking. Sure he was a big deal in some classic questlines and had a fancy-sounding title, but that was the extent of his character. He was presumed dead during BC and WotLK because the Alliance killed him as a quest objective. They confirmed he hadn't actually been killed by the Alliance in Cataclysm, but didn't actually do anything with the character (in spite of the Forsaken having some fairly major arcs), he just sat around in the Undercity. MoP and WoD came and went with him still doing nothing but sitting around in the Undercity.
Then Legion drops and suddenly this guy who hadn't done anything since classic was suddenly a centerpiece of the Forsaken narrative. To the point where in BfA the Forsaken narrative would be fundamentally changed without him.
My point is that one expansion, one patch, is all it takes to bring a character to the forefront of the narrative. And once they are there, it's only a small step to a more formal leadership role.
Looking at the information in front of me, Lilian Voss is the person to pay attention to regarding the future of the Forsaken narrative. I had my misgivings (still do really) about her inclusion in the Horde War Campaign, but I find when I shoved those aside and tried to judge the current state of the character, I could only conclude that she was being set up for a major role in a post-Sylvanas Forsaken. As the patches have started to role out, I have only been further entrenched in this view.
Lillian Voss or maybe even Calia Menethil can take the reins of the Forsaken after Sylvanas dies or is deposed.
Something has been going on for a while with Voss as she is not a Forsaken that would be behind Nathanos and Sylvanas willingly if you read her lore. Calia is also interesting as she is technically a lightforged undead and is also the last royal of the fallen kingdom.
I am honestly surprised they brought Calia back up in the first place after so long so they might be setting up something with her.
Edited by Wispy on Feb 11th 2019 at 8:47:50 AM
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