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Wispy Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Nov 28th 2018 at 8:54:26 PM

Lillian Voss was always neutral. She never agreed with the Forsaken since the start but since her former comrades and father were Scarlet Crusade and tried to kill her she didn't go back to the living either.

I always personally liked her character out of the Forsaken, that new Thomas Zelling guy also does not seem like a standard Forsaken either and is not very comfortable with Sylvanas's plans.

I highly suspect at some point that we may get a Forsaken separatist group as they seem to be trying to build up a small group of neutral or more heroic/noble inclined Forsaken.

Lets just hope they aren't killed off in some random book like the Desolate Council

Edited by Wispy on Nov 28th 2018 at 8:59:09 AM

Nov 29th 2018 at 12:31:33 AM

I haven’t played Wo W in a extremely long time, but I wanted to see the Allied race feature and how the game changed.

Personally I don't see why Sylvanas can't be removed as warchief and not be killed.

The number 1 concern with Wo W is customer happiness and the current direction is leading to players being apathetic. There is no reason to go with a decision that will make the majority of people unhappy.

In addition to repeatedly saying Sylvanas isn’t Garrosh and there won’t be a Siege of Orgrimmar repeat, we have seen Blizzard change stuff due to negative fan reception such as recently adding an option to side with Sylvanas in the latest quests.

How would you build up new characters of the Horde. We can’t add any other heroes from WCIII without reviving characters as Sylvanas is the last one left. At most there are only a couple minor characters like Tagar, Cairne’s Number Two in Frozen throne.

Druplesnubb Editor of Posts
Editor of Posts
Nov 29th 2018 at 2:13:42 AM

I mean, there's several characters that are still around but aren't currently doing anything. Thrall, Nazgrel, and Roanauk Icemist come to mind. Allied Races are also doing a good job of adding new Horde characters. We now have Ebonhorn, Thalyssra and all the other notable Nightborne and Highmountain characters in the Horde. And I think I need to remind everyone that Vol'Jin isn't any more dead than Sylvanas is, I.E. the kind of dead where you still walk around, talk, fight and have major storylines centered around you.

Also, like, just introduce some new characters. Every major character was a newcomer at some point in the story. We already have Zappy Boi in this expansion as a complete newcomer that got his own role in the story and managed to become really popular.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Nov 29th 2018 at 11:46:19 AM

Nov 29th 2018 at 4:31:47 AM

Unfortunately the narrative has pushed most of them as being pawns of the Alliance.

Edited by Memers on Nov 29th 2018 at 4:35:54 AM

Nov 29th 2018 at 7:38:01 AM

Thrall seems unlikely to come back at this point, with the story specifically going out of the way to have him depowered for some reason.

Nazgrel is a bad case of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character, he hasn't been allowed to do anything since Burning Crusade! He wasn't even mentioned since the whole Garrosh debacle and honestly with how Mists treated orcs, it probably would have derailed him as a villain.

Its interesting to note, Danath was allowed to move out of BC content and star in the Arathi warfront, but Nazgrel continued to rot in Outland and the previously retired Eitrigg was used instead, when the former would make far more sense.

Ghost Vol'jin seemingly can't be racial leader or war chief, or physically interact with the world anymore. Personally it seems like a half hearted consolation for having Vol'jin pointlessly killed by a Mook in Legion. Also Trolls were supposed to mistrust the Forsaken, whatever happened to that plot point?

Its good to have characters who are allowed more then one expansion to develop. Its especially good to have heroes who were allowed focus in WCIII, as Reforged is reminding us.

Nov 29th 2018 at 8:34:27 AM

also the people we do have alive like Lorthemar or Baine they never give enough screen time to develop as a characters

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Nov 29th 2018 at 8:34:40 AM

Nov 29th 2018 at 9:20:44 AM

Baine Bloodhoof is an especially bad case as most of the only things he's been allowed to do is Character Shilling of Anduin, who already has the Wo W comic, several novels and expansions worth of focus.

The Horde fanbase turned against Baine after the writing made him do stupidly cruel moves like exiling widowers for defending Mulgore.

Baine could have easily been a very well loved character if the writers had given him and the tauren proper focus and development.

RedSavant Demon
Nov 29th 2018 at 9:36:48 AM

^You keep saying that, but as a Tauren player for the last fourteen years of my life, you don't speak for me or my views on Baine. Please understand that not all of us blame the character for questionable writing decisions, especially when we've already discussed several times that it's not as clear-cut as you've consistently made it sound.

Falrinn Random Internet Person from A location definable in 4 dimensional terms
Random Internet Person
Nov 29th 2018 at 12:44:51 PM

I think it's worth mentioning that there is a big difference between reading reactions (which will always going to skew negative compared with the actual average) or reading synopsis/datamined content (which will always lose some context) and actually experiencing it.

The fact that the Trolls don't have an official racial leader is a serious problem on paper, but it's hard to get riled up about when you are adventuring through the swamps of Nazmir alongside Rokhan and a force of Darkspear Trolls under his command.

And while Etrigg is seriously mischaracterized in the Arathi Warfront, he's not in literally everything else he does (the Drustvar introduction, the Mag'har recruitment scenario, and the guy who manages War effort research). Which, when combined with Cromush stepping in as a more aggressive Orc in 8.1 and the fact that the Arathi Warfront isn't well written in general makes it feel like a one-off mistake.

My view on Voss being representative of the Forsaken's future is an opinion I only came after actually playing through the War Campaign. The community reaction, that I knew all about, was too focused on the weirdness of her being in the Horde in the first place to put a lot of emphasis on what she was actually doing once inside.

I like liking things
Nov 29th 2018 at 1:05:17 PM

I fully agree that Baine was forced to do so by the writers, note his original lines(video link).

However I don’t see any way in which his action in Tides of Was was not bad. To put it in perspective, the punishment “Tides of War Baine” to the tauren for defending themselves, was the same punishment Magatha received for killing Cairne and attempting a coup.

That part of "Tides of War" needs to be retconned if Baine is a Horde hero.

In addition to that, it'd be great to see those afore linked recorded lines, finally used for Baine. Baine delivering a Karma Houdini expiration date to the Dwarven Explorer's league.

RE: Falrinn

Besides his personality change, Eitrigg was a long retired warrior in all past lore, he was level 20 for most of Wo W. Legion didn't even refer to his friendship with Tirion, you'd think he'd react to his close friend's death but he didn't. It also refers to him as a member of the Warsong clan at one point, when he was Blackrock.

Its clear, Eitrigg was retooled. Believe me, he's written like that as a battlehungry berserk everywhere. At least the Mag'har recruitment scenario managed to remember he was Blackrock this time.

It is an issue because Rokhan is the only Darkspear hero that can currently be used, hence he's everywhere such as in the Arathi warfront. If Vol'jin hadn't been spitefully killed off in a misguided attempt to even the scales, then Rokhan's roles could've been peacefully divided.

Edited by Monsund on Nov 29th 2018 at 1:16:14 AM

Falrinn Random Internet Person from A location definable in 4 dimensional terms
Random Internet Person
Nov 29th 2018 at 1:44:22 PM

[up] Except that's wrong. Rokhan is not the only Darkspear Troll with a role of note in BfA. In the Vol'jin questline he has a fairly limited role with Master Gadrin (a Darkspear elder) being the primary Darkspear Troll involved.

And he's just the first example I thought of. There are plenty of others, and overall the Darkspear Trolls have a good showing in BfA.

I like liking things
Druplesnubb Editor of Posts
Editor of Posts
Nov 29th 2018 at 2:10:44 PM

If Vol'jin hadn't been spitefully killed off in a misguided attempt to even the scales
What even is this? Spiteful? Even what scales? Vol'Jin was obviously killed off so that Sylvanas could become Warchief and kickstart Bf A and so that he could come back as a ghost and have the currently ongoing plotline about who made him nominate Sylvanas and who made him come back. Are you even trying anymore?

Nov 30th 2018 at 2:47:46 AM

Honestly I think Baine needs to die, at the hands of the alliance, with the 4 Tauren leaders uniting creating a council of tribes and actually get the Tauren on the political map instead of being the planet's doorstop.

Bring that Paladin who's name I forget, Grimtotem, Icemist, led by Highmountain. Let them join the war and be a sane but appropriately aggressive faction actually on the strategist table.

Edited by Memers on Nov 30th 2018 at 2:58:32 AM

Dec 3rd 2018 at 7:50:02 AM

You know, I thought of something regarding the Fate of Saurfang's branching narrative. If Blizz is serious about committing to this and making our choices matter in the long run, I think it would help to give you a warning message if you choose to side with Zekhan to show how this choice will affect the future plot.

Something along the lines of:


By choosing to help Zekhan, you will be actively defying the will of your Warchief. You will gain powerful allies in Zekhan and Saurfang, as well as the Worn Cloak Toy, but if the truth of your actions is ever discovered, the consequences could be dire.

You took the Blood Oath. You swore to serve the Horde and its Warchief until your dying breath. Are you prepared and willing to betray that Oath, even if it is save the Horde from ruin?"

Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
Dec 3rd 2018 at 8:05:17 AM

thats the thing though.

As long as there is a canon ending to expansions our choices by definition cannot possibly actually affect the narrative in any meaningful way.

NaraNumas Pun Dragon
Pun Dragon
Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:07:48 AM

It's also kinda a moot point to treat it as betraying the oath of the Horde because it's enough of a retread of the rebellion in Pandaria that if the character's existed before then, they've already proven themselves to be the kind of person loyal to the ideology, not the warchief, and would happily turn on them if they wronged the path of the faction as a whole. If we were speaking from a completely railroaded experience, only Demon Hunters, Allied Races, and Forsaken would get to choose, because to every other MOP-era race, this screams Here We Go Again!.

Something that still bugs me a bit that I managed to place is just how many more chances Sylvanas is getting. What was Garrosh's "too far"? Was it messing with the Sha? Bombing Theramore (which if I recall the book was mostly evacuated of civilians)? Trying to assassinate Vol'jin? Obliterating Anduin? Compare Sylvanas, who's made a Deal with the Devil with Helya, tries to have Saurfang assassinated, and successfully committed a genocide on explicitly noncombatant civilians.

They drew the line in the sand with Garrosh's Moral Event Horizon, but if you compare the two of them, Sylvanas is doing way worse things than we turned on Garrosh for doing, so it just seems weird now that they're letting us decide our loyalties.

Edited by NaraNumas on Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:19:45 AM

RedSavant Demon
Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:26:59 AM

I think at this point, it feels like (in-universe) the die has been cast. The Horde has to stay together right now or the Alliance will crush them; cooler heads barely prevailed after the Siege of Orgrimmar, and now the situation is much worse. Sure, the Darkspear could leave the Horde, for instance, but how long until the Echo Isles were subjugated by the Alliance's fancy new navy or the marines from Northreach as a staging point on Orgrimmar? The Tauren leaving would leave the almost guaranteed Barrens battlefront all but undefended (don't piggyback off me to criticize Baine, I don't want to hear it), and the Great Wall would only hold for so long. Likewise, the Blood Elves are in an extremely disadvantageous position with Lordaeron destroyed, and their relations with the Alliance are in the gutter already as it is.

The only chance the Horde has to survive this currently is to stick together and wait to excise Sylvanas (and her upper leadership, if necessary) as quickly as possible, but only when it's safe to do so. The Horde is already on the back foot and besieging their own capital, again, when it took Alliance support last time and the Alliance will be hostile this time, would be suicide.

Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:39:26 AM

[up] Thats the entire problem with this. The Horde is losing its ass off to the point nothing can happen and if Sarufang does try something everyone is a complete dumbass if they support it thus the plot line can go nowhere.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Dec 3rd 2018 at 9:40:31 AM

You guys do know that Blizzard is writing this, right? It's not the fans. Fans make assumptions and guesses, but none of us knows what is actually going to happen. The macroscopic story for BfA was written long before any of us saw any of this content, and it's not done yet. So all of this whining is not only premature, but completely unfounded.

Okay, that's it for today's attempt to insert sanity. Continue your whining.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 3rd 2018 at 12:42:11 PM

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Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Dec 3rd 2018 at 11:43:54 AM

In actual game news, as opposed to players (many of whom don't play the game any more) whining about the story, we're getting changes to Island Expedition rewards.

Currently, expeditions have a chance to award bonus loot (pets, mounts, quest items, xmog gear, etc) based on which specific mobs you killed (or mined Azerite near). This led to players tending to ignore the completion objectives (and their teammates) and run straight to whichever mobs or rares increase their chances of getting specific items.

After the changes, your chance of getting bonus loot will depend solely on the population of the island (along with any events that occur while you are on it), regardless of which mobs you kill, which events you engage in, and which nodes you mine. This will mean that completing islands quickly will become the most efficient way of farming them and you will no longer be able to target specific items. Oh, and the chance increases with difficulty as well, with Mythic (and PvP) expeditions having the best drop rates to offset the increased time and challenge.

From some of the comments, I'm hearing that there is a "strategy" of vote-kicking one of the three team members immediately before the expedition ends to increase loot chances for the remaining two players. I've never encountered that myself; in fact, the only time I've ever seen someone kicked from an expedition was for AFKing. However, if loot distribution actually works that way, I'd be very surprised.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 3rd 2018 at 2:50:24 PM

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NaraNumas Pun Dragon
Pun Dragon
Dec 3rd 2018 at 12:01:09 PM

[up] I'm not sure if it does work that way, but enough people believe it does that 2-stacks kicking the third person is an extremely frequent occurrence, I had it happen to me twice in a row and decided I was done with the content entirely, since I had already gotten both War Campaign factions exalted. It wouldn't be/have been nearly as frustrating if it didn't give you the 30 minute deserter cooldown upon being kicked so I can't even hop back into another one, effectively forcing me to go do something else not related to dungeons or end my session.

I don't know if this fix will save expeditions, but at least it's some kind of change for the positive.

Edited by NaraNumas on Dec 3rd 2018 at 2:44:11 PM

RedSavant Demon
Dec 3rd 2018 at 4:02:08 PM

You know what, Fighteer? You win. No more "whining" from me. Enjoy your thread.

Dec 3rd 2018 at 4:17:08 PM

RE: Falrinn

Numerous Darkspear troll characters like? The only other troll is Zen’tabra who just did some minor things in MOP

RE: Druplesnubb

Vol’jin’s death was even to the scales from Varian dying, in earlier builds he just disappeared. Everything indicates he was killed to even out Varian’s death despite Varian being an active High King since WOTLK, while Vol’jin got very little to do in MOP and nothing to do in Wo D.

Oh and to vilify the Horde, yet again.

You can even tell it wasn’t part of the plans because the novel “Shadows of the Horde” said Vol’jin would face incredible trials as war chief that would make death seem tame.

With his death, it also killed off the last leader of the WC 3 Horde

Compare Varian’s Heroic Sacrifice, complete with the Horde being made to look as awful as possible, ‘’again!’’

It was mean-spirited and rushed in every sense.

“Are you even trying anymore?”

We already talked about not doing personal attacks.

RE: Fighteer

We have seen Blizzard admit several times to changing the plot multiple times due to player dissatisfaction.

ChrisX ..... from ..... Relationship Status: Singularity
Dec 3rd 2018 at 4:25:11 PM

The Warcraft fanbase has become so huge, like all other Blizzard franchises, that finding those displeased with the current storytelling will become more apparent.

I had in mind that maybe a topic in Yack Fest to contain those displeased with Blizzard's treatment to Warcraft may be a solution so those who enjoy the current game and storyline can be free to discuss and hype here, but I'm not sure if it's allowed. You think?

Falrinn Random Internet Person from A location definable in 4 dimensional terms
Random Internet Person
Dec 3rd 2018 at 5:02:30 PM


What I can say as an absolute fact is this: When I personally play through the Horde content in BfA, I feel pretty good about the Darkspear Tribe. There's not really anything anyone can say that can change that, because it's just how the story personally strikes me.

Rather than overriding the Darkspear story, the Zandalari story compliments it. Under the leadership of Rokhan they lend their expertise in Talanji's expedition, and there's a dedicated storyline about their recently deceased Chieftain reincarnating as a FUCKING DEITY!!! To me, that's freaking amazing.

Sure technically the list of notable Darkspear Troll characters is fairly short, and technically there isn't an official chieftain, but my enjoyment of the game isn't derived from reading long lists of characters or seeing a <Darkspear Chieftain> tag, it's from experiencing the story.

I like liking things

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