TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

When a political movement contradicts itself in its campaign

Go To

Gelzo Gerald Zosewater from the vault Since: Oct, 2009
Gerald Zosewater
#1: Oct 18th 2010 at 4:56:11 PM

I saw a booth at my college being run by a group in support of socialism. There were some flyers that also spoke out against Arizona- presumably for the state's ill-advised handling of illegal-immigration.

Anyway, I saw one flyer that said "capitalism is failing" and another that said "boycott Arizona."

I found that amusingly ironic, since boycotting is a form of protest that is only possible with capitalism. By implying that boycotting would be influential, they were making a case for the ability of capitalism to discourage actions that caused social harm.

Oh, this also goes for Luddites that use the internet to share their views.

Ruining everything forever.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2: Oct 18th 2010 at 10:37:24 PM

Boycotting Arizona probably looks like fighting fire with fire to them.

I don't actually think that playing what cards you have (like the Fair Trade oginization) to at least balance the game out somewhat is such a bad thing.

Socialism doesn't actually believe that capitalism doesn't exist (or that it couldn't be controlled by money and how it is used or not used), it just considers capitalism an obsolete political model.

If capitalism is failing, boycotting Arizona is probably going to make it fail faster, so it's still a victory for them.

In all fairness, though, I suspect that by composing this post I've already thought about this subject more than they have if they really think that boycotting everything coming from a certain state is a valid form of civil activism - I mean, most people in the state have nothing to do with the issue, and besides, sometimes it's impossible to know where the stuff you're buying comes from, so boycotting a state seems very unlikely to be a successful strategy.

I fully approve of boycotting a corporation, though, because there actually is a relatively high chance of them re-considering the ethical aspects of their operation - which might be true for a state if it was in actuality possible to pull it off.

edited 18th Oct '10 10:38:30 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Gelzo Gerald Zosewater from the vault Since: Oct, 2009
Gerald Zosewater
#3: Oct 18th 2010 at 11:23:11 PM

I wasn't saying that they were denying the existence of capitalism, they just seemed to be admitting in a way that the structure of capitalism can be used for good ends. But, I think we're mostly in agreement.

However, I think that boycotting good from a state can be a successful way to influence the state's policy. Any community has economic concerns- some of which have parallels to a company. If businesses can't be conducted as effectively in a state, some businesses will fail or move and that can cause problems for voters and politicians.

Ruining everything forever.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#4: Oct 19th 2010 at 12:11:16 AM

Ok, first of all most stuff that gets made in Arizona is probably stamped "Made in the USA"; there's no point being any more specific if the product or brand is not specific to Arizona. So there goes a huge chunk of the state's industry right past the boycott radar.

(Note that I don't actually know just about anything about Arizona, I'm just assuming very general things based on my knowledge of the US in general, so do point out if there's a point where I very clearly Did Not Do The Research.)

Point 2. You get your college campus, or let's say you get your entire state to boycott products that they know are from Arizona.

Big deal.

Most of the stuff made in Arizona probably goes to Arizona, and the exports (if you can call them that when they're between parts of the same country; as for foreign exports, they're not even trying to sell them to you, so you're not really boycotting them) to other states are likely to travel to all states, with neighbouring states and states with larger populations getting more material for obvious reasons.

So you lose one state. If it's not Texas, California or New York, Arizona can probably just divert that traffic to another state and fill up some storage space until this whole boycott passes, which would be a month or two (at the most) after it starts, whether or not there's a result. Reason? According to my knowledge, Americans aren't really into boycotting or having to look out for stuff from certain countries - so how long would they maintain a grudge against a single state?

Point three. You're talking about a state.

A state usually has just about every branch of industry in it, and most branches probably are producing exports. Are you gonna boycott all of them? So what if you're boycotting farming equipment or cowboy hats or cacti or whatever if you would not even consider buying them in the first place? Who gives a crap?

Let's assume a scenario. Imagine that Arizona makes plane parts. Does it? I don't know, we're imagining here. So, you board a plane. You know where it was built? If you ask, they'll tell you the country it was built and if they're in the mood to actually look it up for you, the facility where it was assembled. Where did the parts come from?

Who gives a fuck?

So you're not gonna be boycotting some industries because you'll never know you're using them.

How do you boycott services from Arizona? You stay out of the state, right?

OK. So, you call a customer service line, you get service (or more likely not, but you get charged anyway), and you end the call. Guess what? You just called Arizona. You'll never know.

Point is, you'll never know which state's products you're using if there is no particular reason for the store or whatever business you're dealing with to go out of their way to tell you if it was made in Arizona.

Let's assume you're buying a cowboy hat. You know Arizona makes them, and you're boycotting stuff from Arizona. There's a "Made in the USA" sticker on the inside of the hat, so you think you're safe. You ask the sales assistant or whatever term that particular store uses for its clerks, "Which state was this hat produced in?"

Now, in most cases the clerk would have no idea. Two options. One, they can admit that they don't know, and if they apologize for not knowing you'll probably buy the hat just to make up for asking or something. Two, they lie. This is the clerk's thought process: "I'm gonna sell this hat if I name a state the customer wants to hear. It has to include cowboy." Here's what they tell you: "Texas. It was made in Texas." You buy your hat. (Who goes out of their way to buy a cowboy hat?)

Besides, most products made in Arizona are probably made by huge corporations that have factories all over the US and probably the world.

So, either you boycott the whole company for one of its factories being associated with Arizona or you keep buying their stuff, never knowing whether that particular cowboy hat (stop with the cowboy hats, already!) was made in the factory in Arizona or the one in New Mexico.

Boycotting corporations that are specific to Arizona would actually work, so Cowboy Hats of Arizona United is shit out of luck. You manage to close the factory down, the firm goes bankrupt, 500 hardworking cowboy hat makes become unemployed. Why? Their company was in the wrong state, that's why.

It's not as if these companies are actually pushing these laws - on the contrary, the border needs to be open so they get fred almost free illegal labour.

The only thing you could boycott without punishing the innocent are products and services provided by the state of Arizona. I don't think Arizonans are going to boycott them, so there goes 90% of the effect of your boycott.

Are you going to get the law changed?

Probably not. You'd need a massive boycott that'd stretch all across the main fields where the state (the actual State) of Arizona sells its stuff (so if there's a "State-Owned Cowboy Hat Corporation of Arizona", go ahead and boycott that). No way are you going to pull off a boycott campaign against a state and succeed, and even if you did and actually managed to get the law passed (or in this case repealed), the bill for the damages you caused to the state would be charged from the taxpayers in Arizona, so they're not going to love you for it.

A boycott against a corporation sometimes works because corporations are vastly different from states, municipalities and nations.

A boycott against an entire nation by large amount of people from all over the world might also work, but only if the nation boycotted is absolutely reliant on good PR or strong exports and you're actually threatening those - so you're not going to see this work any time soon.

Personally, I try not to buy anything that's made outside the EU because I kind of hope everywhere would have the same basic rights (especially worker's rights in this case) and I hope I'm helping that in a small way by pointing out that a lot of people actually will pay more for an ethically produced product.

But that's neither here nor there.

edited 19th Oct '10 12:18:05 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Gelzo Gerald Zosewater from the vault Since: Oct, 2009
Gerald Zosewater
#5: Oct 19th 2010 at 12:16:31 AM

Jesus. That's a lot to read.

Imma go study for a test. Maybe you could check this out before I respond tomorrow.

Ruining everything forever.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#6: Oct 19th 2010 at 12:22:15 AM

I never realized you were talking about a boycott that actually happened inside the state; I just assumed it'd be another state or a smaller unit in another state boycotting Arizona.

I can see how the stuff detailed on Wikipedia would work, but the points I made in my rant still stand, or at least I think they do.

If you ever manage to actually read that redundant pile of stuff, tell me; I'm going to bed soon.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Kino Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Californicating
#7: Oct 19th 2010 at 10:42:31 AM

What ever happened to that boycott?

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#8: Oct 19th 2010 at 10:52:06 AM

Someone debunk my rant already, I want to know if it really was as stupid as it seemed when I re-read it.

edited 19th Oct '10 10:52:21 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Add Post

Total posts: 8
Top