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Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5676: Apr 5th 2012 at 7:34:14 PM

Since you guys are more intimate with the failings of Force, that was supposed to initiate one of you to continue it.tongue

ChrisX ..... from ..... Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
#5677: Apr 5th 2012 at 7:36:50 PM

I kinda abandoned FORCE when that reveal came up, and just consider it 'bad, without any hope unless any miracle comes around'. As I said, I didn't find any Fridge Brilliance to put hope on it, so I practically just stopped being intimate. Or at least going on the same level as Akiyoshi did.

And the reason I asked was because I really wish it could continue, but I can't come up with the continuation.

edited 5th Apr '12 7:37:55 PM by ChrisX

Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5678: Apr 5th 2012 at 7:37:05 PM

Justin Brett: At least Quinn demonstrated to be a considerable threat by being able to react faster than Tohma and also being able to slice Two Fortress shelds with an unreacted divider(the last time someone accomplished such a feat was full powered Tohma with reacted Divider-996). It was quite a surprise seeing her being trashed that easilly by Cypha.

And I'm still standing here and even learn to 'come to term' to it, while still liking both! I ate two punches on the guts, at the same time, even, and I'm still standing up! I don't see why you can't follow the example.

I guess i'm not as Badass as you xDU

edited 5th Apr '12 7:38:09 PM by Akiyoshi

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5679: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:03:21 PM

[up] Yeah but those are things they just had her do to let Cypha look good by beating her up. That's why the heroes lost instead of her showing up after they'd won and looking disappointed.

And can't you at least just shut up for people who don't want to deal with you not dealing with it?

Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5680: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:15:39 PM

[up]At least the point stands in Cypha's credibility going up since she finally managed to win against an opponent on equal conditions as her.

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#5681: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:20:44 PM

While I don't follow Force myself, the impression I get the issue most people has isn't so much the old characters losing, but how the new characters are wanked up for those defeats to happen. That basically the Hucks were built up as an Only the Author Can Save Them Now threat, which is always a sign of Bad Writing, right? That, and that they're so far gone past the Moral Event Horizon, their (hinted? possible? I'm not clear on this yet) Heel–Face Turn would be nearly impossible to pull without turning them into a set of Karma Houdinis.

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#5682: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:24:24 PM

Cypha gloated about slaughtering an entire world's population. Not sure how they could redeem her.

Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5683: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:24:41 PM

Well, if they did cross the MEH, the trope page isn't doing a good job of convincing me that they're irredeemable monsters.

[up]A Falcon Punch to the face is a good way to start.cool

Also, WTF is with the Curren example? That just sounds like the character being smart, not being a monster.

edited 5th Apr '12 8:25:42 PM by Rynnec

JuanAditya from Surabaya, Indonesia Since: Apr, 2012
#5684: Apr 5th 2012 at 8:51:11 PM

Maybe Curren like to play with thoughts and feelings of those around her. And also tend to laugh at people who are in trouble.

NOTE: I'm a new member in this forum smile

edited 5th Apr '12 9:00:51 PM by JuanAditya

Death is the most worse punishment, but kept alive with a cruel mercy even worse than death.
Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5685: Apr 5th 2012 at 9:38:38 PM

[up] Personally, i think she's both: a very cunning Manipulative Bastard and also a gloating Smug Snake. Add to the fact she's an unmatched warrior and you have Boss material in your hands xD

By the way, welcome to the forums, enoy your visit on this thread filled of quirky and peculiar characters xD!

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
JuanAditya from Surabaya, Indonesia Since: Apr, 2012
#5686: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:03:25 PM

[up] With a Lack of Empathy nature. Don't forget that.

As long as she and other Huckebein still like that, they will never be able to feel what the shedding the tears actually and the inner pain.

edited 5th Apr '12 10:20:10 PM by JuanAditya

Death is the most worse punishment, but kept alive with a cruel mercy even worse than death.
Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5687: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:23:56 PM

[up]I have to disagree on the last part. The Huckebein are indeed unlikable jerks but they do have experienced pain. All of them are infected by the Eclipse virus and as such were banned from a normal life forever, being in the need to spread death and chaos to avoid their own demise. Howerver, their situation dosen't justifies their actions, i can comprehend what they are going trough but i can't symphazise with them or root for what they're doing xDU

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
JuanAditya from Surabaya, Indonesia Since: Apr, 2012
#5688: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:41:40 PM

Painful, yes. I can comprehend them. But still I do not want to forgive them, considering their arrogance personality.

I still don't get it, why the bastards like them could live in the Nanoha universe? Once again I have to say that sympathy ≠ forgivable.

Death is the most worse punishment, but kept alive with a cruel mercy even worse than death.
JuanAditya from Surabaya, Indonesia Since: Apr, 2012
#5689: Apr 5th 2012 at 10:59:31 PM

What they do makes them not much different from most other criminals. Instead they want to relieve their pain, they actually involve some innocent people who had nothing to do with their business.

In short: the Huckebein is a family who fights monsters.

Death is the most worse punishment, but kept alive with a cruel mercy even worse than death.
Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#5690: Apr 6th 2012 at 2:49:51 PM

[up]I'm reminded of something once said about Vampire The Masquerade vs. FATAL.

In Vampire, you have to make a choice: do I hurt other people to live? And eventually I'm going to fail my thirst roll and somebody's going to die and I know it. I don't have to do this. I can just wait, step out into the sun when it rises, and die. That's a valid, in-character choice. That's what makes a tragic monster, and one that can seek redemption.

In FATAL, it's all "rape and killing people is cool! Let's remove the consequences!" And so players may merrily rape and pillage and burn their way across the landscape without the slightest of consequence or thought for their actions.

The Combat Cyborgs in Striker S lived in Vampire. They knew they were making a moral choice when they killed, even if they didn't understand it, and several of them appeared to care about how that choice reflected on them and affected their reality. They could thus be redeemed.

The Huckebein are living in FATAL. Their choices are not viewed as related to morality, merely to whether they themselves suffer. They regard their own suffering as more important than any life or number of lives. There is no morality here to play on. You're a total sociopath with a dash of psychosis. Nothing can fix you, you will always be this way. You've never regarded waiting for the sunrise (or whatever it takes to kill a Huckebein) and dying as a valid choice, and you never will. Why? You're living in FATAL, and no redemption is possible for that.

Nous restons ici.
Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5691: Apr 6th 2012 at 4:47:10 PM

[up]I guess that makes Tohma a foolish idealist for trying to "save" them xD

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5692: Apr 6th 2012 at 5:59:16 PM

[up][up] You couldn't think of anything other than FATAL? That's even worse than comparing this to Other M.

Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#5693: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:26:00 PM

[up]I'm actually referring to a real discussion on the subject of why FATAL sucked from RPG.net's review of it.

So yes, I couldn't, because that was Darren McLannen's metaphor. tongue

[up][up]Frankly I think that everyone involved in the story so far is a massive idiot for not trying to kill them on the spot, since even if you capture them, it's a matter of dying in slow agony instead of reasonably quickly when you had your head cut off.

edited 6th Apr '12 6:35:33 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.
Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5694: Apr 6th 2012 at 6:59:19 PM

[up] They did have a cure for it, though, or at least one that helps a lot despite them not having an actual sample of the virus to base it on. Now that they have Touma all the drama of that is pretty much gone. Which really doesn't help their cause, huh?

And fair enough I guess, but that makes me think of Veyron rolling to measure how wide around Touma's asshole is.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:00:14 PM by Justin_Brett

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#5695: Apr 7th 2012 at 3:57:37 AM

I hope they don't end up as Karma Houdinis.

From the Five Bad Band page:

* Lyrical Nanoha Force - The Huckebein Family
  • The Big Bad - Fortis (Also doubles as the Evil Genius, according to his profile)
  • The Dragon - Either Cypha (the most dangerous in battle so far) or Deville (accompanies Fortis constantly, and seems to be his bodyguard of sorts)
  • The Evil Genius - Stella (not smart, exactly, but responsible for maintaining the Huckebein Airship, and given that she looks less than ten, wouldn't be much use on the physical side.
  • The Brute - Veyron (along with some shades of Enigmatic Minion)
  • The Dark Chick - Arnage - The most normal one of the bunch, which is saying something.

This isn't really accurate anymore, is it? tongue

JuanAditya from Surabaya, Indonesia Since: Apr, 2012
#5696: Apr 7th 2012 at 6:22:25 AM

Someone must provide little improvement, because Curren was holding the reins of leadership.

Death is the most worse punishment, but kept alive with a cruel mercy even worse than death.
Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5697: Apr 7th 2012 at 9:35:02 AM

[up][up] I was the one who added that in the first place, but the chapter Curren shows up in pissed me off too much to change it. And no-one else seemed to care about doing it. You're the first person to mention it, actually.

edited 7th Apr '12 9:35:59 AM by Justin_Brett

GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#5698: Apr 7th 2012 at 10:35:43 AM

I haven't seen any of Force, but if it seems like a set of villains just happens to fit the Five Bad Band mold by accident sometimes and at other times it's iffy, then it's probably not an example, as the authors probably didn't intend it that way.

Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5699: Apr 7th 2012 at 1:30:53 PM

Well, supposedly they fit different roles in the group, even if they haven't shown that off so well.

Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5700: Apr 7th 2012 at 9:19:03 PM

He, i never knew the Huckebein are on that page. I care enough to edit so here i go xD

EDIT: already did it, it ended up like this:

  • Lyrical Nanoha Force - The Huckebein Family
    • The Big Bad - Curren (Undisputable leader of the group and apparently their most powerfull member. Also the only member with "Huckebein" as her true last name).
    • The Dragon - Either Cypha (the most dangerous in battle so far) or Fortis (see The Evil Genius below).
    • The Evil Genius - Fortis (Seems to be the "brains" of the group and Curren's second in command of sorts when she's absent. Also have a calmer and more afflabel attitude than most of his comrades save Curren.)Stella (not smart, exactly, but responsible for maintaining the Huckebein Airship, and given that she looks less than ten, wouldn't be much use on the physical side.
    • The Brute - Either Veyron (along with some shades of Enigmatic Minion) or Deville (who seems to be the most physically stronger member of the team and seems to be sort of a boosted Mighty Glacier in combat).
    • The Dark Chick - Arnage - The most normal one of the bunch, which is saying something.

edited 7th Apr '12 9:38:32 PM by Akiyoshi

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!

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