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Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5651: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:37:17 PM

@Rynnec: I've spent good time without adressing the problem with Signum and only do it form time to time. This time, however, have an actual purpouse. She has been present in the story for three chapters straight doing absolutely nothing and now is implied she will have a re-match with the character used to put Signum on her current situation which will be descicive to know what direction her character will take from now on.

As her fan i'm understandably unstable and expectiong from what's gonna happen so i comment on it. I know i'm a bit too pesimistic but that's the result of almost two years of waiting.

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5652: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:39:07 PM

>Alright, so Tsuzuki is to Nanoha what Sakamoto is to Metroid, I get it.

I don't even think Night would accuse him of that, and rightly so. Force hasn't had anything like the bullshit in that.

edited 5th Apr '12 5:39:29 PM by Justin_Brett

Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5653: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:39:30 PM

@Night: Yeah, but Nanoha is nowhere near as big, mainstream, or legendary as Spiderman is. And hasn't Tsuzuki been on board the franchise since it's inception? I doubt this is anything as severe as OMD (unless Nanoha made a deal with her Universe's Mephisto equivalent to erase her and Fate's marriage so she can save a family member whom was prepared to face death). This reallly just sounds like Tite Kubo-level trolling. And I'm sure that if there's another manga after Force, the franchise will recover.

[up]It's mainly the whole "Forcing his vision on the franchise on everybody" deal. I agree that this probably isn't anywhere as big a trainwreck as the story in that game was.

edited 5th Apr '12 5:41:06 PM by Rynnec

Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5654: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:44:11 PM

[up]Now that you mention Kubo. Do you people know if Tsuzuki is in complete control of the story? Or is he co-writing Force with someone? Maybe his producers incluence his descicions?

For the main timeline to recover it will be necessary something of "The MOVIE 1st manga"-levels of awesome.

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5655: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:48:28 PM

I wouldn't be suprised if some Executive Meddling was going on here. But until then:

SO THERE I WAS BEING TSUZUKI...

Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#5656: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:49:00 PM

[up][up][up]To be honest, in a way I consider this a worse departure than OMD. Sure, you lost the marriage there, but MJ was still a part of the franchise and Spidie was still doing his thing as Spidie. (Regardless of how he did the webbing.)

In Force, Nanoha can't do her thing as Nanoha. We're not going to cap the series with a Starlight Breaker. We're not going to see a bunch of Divine Busters along the way. Eliminating the magic system for offensive purposes changes the setting in a much deeper way than OMD changed Spiderman.

edited 5th Apr '12 5:49:42 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.
Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5657: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:50:19 PM

I was thinking that for a while at first since i like most of Tsuzuki's other works and the contrast of all of them with Force was so great i initally refused to believe that was exclusively Tsuzuki's doing xDU

Specially considering how he's able to do something as depicable as Force and at the same time doing a mind-blowingly awesome action-fest as The MOVIE 1st manga xDU

edited 5th Apr '12 5:51:15 PM by Akiyoshi

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
Servbot Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#5658: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:51:05 PM

Actually now that I think about it, Force is really an attempt to tell an original story that somehow hijacked Nanoha to do it. It's inherently poorly suited to the universe it's come to, it'd be better off as a Final Fantasy, and all the "clearing the ground" Tsuzuki has had to do reflects this.

Well, with the way the Nanoha-verse is set up (fantasy and sci-fi, oh my), you could tell whatever story you could in it and no one would bat an eyelash.

I think the main difference with Force, when compared to other installments in the Nanoha-verse, is the way it handles the relationship between the plot and characters. With the other Nanoha installments, the plot is mainly there as a means to drive the characters. However, Force seems to be doing the opposite, with the characters being set pieces that are meant to drive the plot.

edited 5th Apr '12 5:51:30 PM by Servbot

Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5659: Apr 5th 2012 at 5:53:10 PM

[up][up][up]But did Nanoha do anything that's against her character and everything the series stands for? Spiderman's deal with Mephisto meant running away from his pain and taking the easy route, thus, going against the theme of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" theme that's so ingrained into the Spiderman mythos.

Until Nanoha kills someone in coldblood (or any reason for that matter) without angsting and/or getting called out on it, then it isn't on OMD's caliber.

edited 5th Apr '12 5:53:44 PM by Rynnec

Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5660: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:03:12 PM

[up][up] I've kinda noticed that too. Not devoting entire scenes to the old characters chatting is fair enough, but not even the new ones have developed that much. A new one was introduced two chapters ago that could be pretty interesting, but now we have to watch Signum and Cypha fight I guess. It's like going from point A to point C.

Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#5661: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:09:04 PM

[up][up]*shrugs* We are at an impasse then. Your point is equally valid in its own way. I would argue that changing the setting will of necessity result in changes to the characters, but such changes have not manifested themselves quite so blatantly.

[up][up][up]If I sat you down and had you watch all three seasons, and then told you "this is a Nanoha manga, in it no one will use offensive magic despite the fact it's almost all fights" you would stare at me in confusion and possibly horror.

There is truth to what you say, in that the plot could not exist without the Huckebein being what they are. But I still think the fact they are what they are represents a huge departure from way the universe has worked for previous installments must be considered as a separate issue from the relationship between plot and characters. If we had simply changed the relationship, the changes would not nearly have been as drastic as what has really happened.

This is, of course, assuming that the characters are driving the plot because of their abilities. Instead of the abilities that are driving the plot having been chosen to make this plot possible, and the characters they are attached to being afterthoughts. Given the similarities between the Huckebein's anti-magic abilities and the lack of development, I am deeply suspicious of making that assumption.

edited 5th Apr '12 6:10:39 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.
Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5662: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:13:42 PM

>There is truth to what you say, in that the plot could not exist without the Huckebein being what they are.

That's not entirely true. You could keep the vampire aspect of them and the healing factor and just drop the anti magic. Surely they could still be a threat to Section Six without that. At least three of them aren't gonna be fighting the vets anyway.

edited 5th Apr '12 6:15:52 PM by Justin_Brett

Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5663: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:15:43 PM

[up]Seeing how the AEC-equipement isn't able to do shit against a Huckebein so far i totally agree with Justin on this one xDU

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#5664: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:17:58 PM

[up][up]I tend to think not, since we've repeatedly demonstrated that magic need not do physical harm to render a person unable to combat. If the Huckebein were not antimagic, we could cap this off with a "Struggle Bind! STARLIGHT BREAKER!", get the unconscious Huckebein sealed, lock them up, and be done. The healing factor and vampiric aspects would make them worthy of Special Service Section Six's attention, but it wouldn't make them able to go toe to toe with the collection of S-rankers and Combat Cyborgs Hayate has at her command.

The fact that they wanted to bring in new equipment, and indeed that new equipment was necessary, is also an important part of Force's narrative.

edited 5th Apr '12 6:18:50 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.
ChrisX ..... from ..... Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
#5665: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:20:03 PM

Although sometimes his ranting does get annoying, I would say that Akiyoshi's ranting are not without merits. At the very least in my problem with Litchi, I found some Fridge Brilliance which would better her position and my stance on her (to eventually stop bitching, or visiting the thread altogether). FORCE? No, I don't think I could find actual Fridge Brilliance over there to make it better. Coincidentally, the reveal of that Gut Punch in BB is also at the same time the 7th Chapter of FORCE is revealed, so they're around the same age. Maybe I could've stopped bitching because I've got other franchises to distract me (Mass Effect, Persona serie comes to mind), so I can suggest that Akiyoshi also do the same.

.... So what's the continuation of 'SO THERE I WAS BEING TSUZUKI...'?

Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5666: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:21:29 PM

You could say that about a lot of people Nanoha's fought, though, where she hasn't done that. It seems like they are overly reliant on that part of their powers, but that doesn't mean they'd get steamrolled THAT easily without them (except for Cypha).

And honestly, a lot of the Combat Cyborgs wouldn't be that useful here. Most of them can't even fly on their own.

edited 5th Apr '12 6:24:47 PM by Justin_Brett

kay4today Princess Ymir's knightess from Austria Since: Jan, 2011
Princess Ymir's knightess
#5667: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:25:31 PM

This poor amount of bitching can't even compare to the bitching that sometimes takes place in certain Shonen threads. tongue Lol, Sharingan! cool

I hope Signum will beat Cypha's ass. I really dislike the Hückebein. Except Fortis, he's kinda amusing.

[down] I wasn't even talking about Duckbutt Mc Crazy. tongue

edited 5th Apr '12 6:31:33 PM by kay4today

Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5668: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:29:48 PM

Yeah, but Sasuke sucks, so that hate is entirely justified.tongue

wild mass guessAfter Signum kicks her ass, Cypha will suddenly become all Yandere for her. And they'll have delicious lesbian Foe Yay.wild mass guess

Hey, a man has a right to dream doesn't he? ;)

Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#5669: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:42:20 PM

[up][up][up]Re: The Cyborgs. They can't fly, it's true, but on the other hand the Huckebein can't either. (I think? Otherwise the Obligatory Anime Motorcycles will annoy me further.) And simply because the main characters do most of their fighting in the air doesn't mean that every fight will take place there. There are buildings and stuff in Nanoha! tongue A boarding action against the Esquad Huckebein in particular would give the Combat Cyborgs an environment they'd be well-suited to.

As for the rest of it, well...here's the problem. It's true Nanoha has fought a lot of people and not done that, right away, but with some variation in the final fate of the villain that's really how we've done the various series. Fate? Breaker and made friends, so it wasn't necessary to do the other stuff. Vita? Saved from a Breaker by not being a bad guy, the Breaker got pointed at the Book's defense program instead. Dieci? Wasn't worth the Breaker so she got a Buster instead, but did get the sealing and the locked up (though eventually let out). Quattro got a Breaker in the back, sealed, and locked up. Vivio? Five Breakers, among other things, but she was never a bad guy either so locking her up wasn't necessary.

There's a definite pattern here, and so far the Huckebein haven't and aren't likely to earn exemptions from getting sealed and locked up. Instead, as of now, they get exemptions by being themselves.

[up]That would actually be amusing, but purely, I think because Signum would want to kill Cypha even more for Cypha getting all Psycho Lesbian over Hayate's...extracurricular activities. tongue

edited 5th Apr '12 6:42:53 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.
Servbot Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#5670: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:51:53 PM

This is, of course, assuming that the characters are driving the plot because of their abilities.

Mmm... That's not quite what I meant to say. I think I got my phrasing wrong.

Basically, Force has a story, and the characters are just devices to be tinkered with so that the story would work. The other installments has characters, and the plot is just another device to be tinkered with for them to gain new interactions and developments.

Does that make sense? <.<;

Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5671: Apr 5th 2012 at 6:52:07 PM

[up][up] Considering they're all wanted, a form of transportation that's less conspicuous than flying everywhere is probably a good idea. And they already boarded the Esquad once and they weren't present.

I think it'd be pretty fitting for Cypha to lose here and then get completely obsessed with killing Signum, who doesn't really give a shit. Assuming they feel like making her a Paper Tiger.

edited 5th Apr '12 6:53:16 PM by Justin_Brett

Akiyoshi Obsolete Belkan Knight from waiting room Since: Jun, 2010
Obsolete Belkan Knight
#5672: Apr 5th 2012 at 7:05:12 PM

Maybe I could've stopped bitching because I've got other franchises to distract me (Mass Effect, Persona serie comes to mind), so I can suggest that Akiyoshi also do the same.

I've already tried to do that and worked for a while, also discovered good series along the way(like NEEDLESS for example, the series runs on pure badassery xD). But i guess the thing is that Signum is truly one of my favourite characters of all anime, period. She hitted many traits i like:

  • cool and calm demeanor
  • implacable strenght/power
  • imposing presence(in and out of the battlefield)
  • gracefull beauty
  • knightly motif with an heroic personality
  • a noble heart
  • hidden cuteness
  • she's a swordfighter with a really Cool Sword
  • fire based powers
  • quirky/funny casual traits
  • Kaori Shimizu's voice *0*
  • and uniqueness for being a cool badass knight kicking ass while dressed in pink xD

And those are only the ones i can remember now xD! But well, i realized most characters similar to her had been received the same cruel fate as her and i was aimlessly searching for a good series with a character similar to her that manages to avoid such fate or is able to arise from it and become awesome again to serve as inspiration an hope. My search has been unsuccessfull so far.

There's also the fact that FORCE Ch. 7 comes at a very bad time where i was still recovering from a personal experience and reading about Signum's awesomeness and keep track of her feats was one of the things that cheered me up, then when things started to going for the better BAM! Cypha enters the scene, i guess that's part of what kickstarted such a big overreaction from my part. Seeing Signum fall and show such weakness was really tough Gut Punch to me.

.... So what's the continuation of 'SO THERE I WAS BEING TSUZUKI...'?

Sorry, i didn't catched the joke so i wasn't able to answer to it xDU

It seems like they are overly reliant on that part of their powers, but that doesn't mean they'd get steamrolled THAT easily without them (except for Cypha).

I don't know. I had to admit Cypha looked pretty boss while trashing Quinn twice in a row. The fact that Cypha beated her even after reaction talks good about her proficiency as a fighter ...or bad about Quinn's own xDU

...wonder how a fight between Quinn and Signum will go xD

I hope Signum will beat Cypha's ass. I really dislike the Hückebein. Except Fortis, he's kinda amusing.

Funny. Fortis is the only Huckebein i wholeheartily hate withou a good reason other than i find him extremely annoying xDU

After Signum kicks her ass, Cypha will suddenly become all Yandere for her. And they'll have delicious lesbian Foe Yay.

Pleaso no, i can see the tons of situations when Cypha will try(with near-success most of the time) to capture and humilliate Signum in order to get turned on by Signum's pridehurt behavior. AHHH!!! i neeed Brain Bleach XP

edited 5th Apr '12 7:14:27 PM by Akiyoshi

May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
Rynnec Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5673: Apr 5th 2012 at 7:13:37 PM

Pleaso no, i can see the tons of situations when Cypha will try(with near-success most of the time) to capture and humilliate Signum in order to get turned on by Signum's pridehurt behavior.

Or it could be like Ragna and Jin's rivalry.

I'm cool with either option.cool

Justin_Brett Since: Jun, 2010
#5674: Apr 5th 2012 at 7:20:49 PM

[up][up] Quinn just showed up, so Cypha beating her is a terrible benchmark for her being good.

ChrisX ..... from ..... Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Singularity
.....
#5675: Apr 5th 2012 at 7:30:15 PM

As I said in your page, Akiyoshi, you think you had it rough with just that? I was not only Gut Punch-ed on that one event, but that event had the same time with the reveal that Litchi just pulled a Face–Heel Turn and opening the gates for people to call her no longer being a genuinely good person, and an idiot for trusting an Obviously Evil Complete Monster like Hazama due to selfishness... And I'm still standing here and even learn to 'come to term' to it, while still liking both! I ate two punches on the guts, at the same time, even, and I'm still standing up! I don't see why you can't follow the example.

And the 'SO THERE I WAS BEING TSUZUKI' joke was directed at Rynnec, not you.

edited 5th Apr '12 7:31:21 PM by ChrisX


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