Unbeugsame Klinge
@Black Yakuza: Nah, its still a badge of honor, its just that Otaku are much more accepted now then they were 20 or even 10 years ago, especially since this pandemic has made a lot of people feel the same type of life style a lot of Hikikomori do.
There's also a fact that it isn't the normal Otaku lifestyle that's looked down upon anymore so much as the "Serial Killer" paranoia from the 90's that is, even if its exaggerated.
Watch SymphogearAs someone whose first introduction to the Persona series was through 4's cast of characters being in Blaz Blue: Cross Tag Battle, reading up on 4 itself on This Very Wiki, watching the anime, and actually owning the PS 2 version of 4 as my first Persona game; I can honestly say that I am surprised that 3 and 5 are favored over 4 here.
Although I also have the opinion that 5 isn't really as great as most people are making it out to be.
AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!![]()
Of what? A person who really likes something and has the same apathy for something else could easily be exaggerating or misreading the thread, especially with that crack about how the thread either likes Persona 3 and Persona 5 or hates Persona 4. This is not an angle that inspires confidence in an objective viewpoint.
And, frankly, you can respond to criticisms without strawmanning people. Seriously, "Okay so the thread consensus is that 4 is a worthless piece of shit"? Come, come, you're better then that.
Edited by fredhot16 on Jan 14th 2021 at 3:44:13 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.The real consensus seems to be that Persona 4 is a generally fine game with a whole bunch of good in it, mixed with some elements that haven't aged very gracefully (or weren't that great to begin with). And some people happen to have particularly strong feelings about it, one way or the other. But don't put words or thoughts into our mouths, it's a good game worth trying out. Same with 3 and 5.
Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Jan 14th 2021 at 3:45:45 AM
Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
My impression is that "This game is sexist and/or homophobic" is like saying "This soup is good except for the horse shit in it"; the problem's big enough that it completely overshadows anything that might have been good about it.
And yeah, from what I've seen here, 4 is criticized to a greater degree than other installments, and moreover that same criticism is the main topic when 4 is brought up.
Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.![]()
Ah. I'm quite new to this thread so I admittedly wouldn't know what the general consensus for this thread is.
But yeah I've got some stronger feelings for 4 than I do 3 or 5 just because I got introduced to Persona through 4's cast and setting.
Edited by powerpuffbats on Jan 14th 2021 at 5:54:41 AM
AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!![]()
O.K, this is probably a weird argument for me to make but noting that a game has sexist and homophobic elements is...not the same as saying it has no redeeming values and everybody involved in the making should have their hands cut off. (Isn't hyperbole fun?)
It's saying that a product has flaws. And, yes, those are pretty bad flaws we should be encouraging to see less of, I'm not trying to downplay that. However, that's not the same as saying it's "a worthless piece of shit."
And I wish you wouldn't do something like that because going for such an extreme interpretation (and outburst) makes it difficult to talk about those flaws or any flaws, you understand? It just stifles conversation in a rude way.
Edited by fredhot16 on Jan 14th 2021 at 4:14:16 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.Yeah, none of this is really called for. I've been one of the most prominent critic of p4 as of recent memory and my opinion is still that the game is a solid 7 that misses being and 8 or more because the things it does wrong I take issue with. I also happen to think 3 and 5 are geniunely better games, but considering both of them are among my five favorite games, that's not saying much. I don't even defend 5 that much here most of the time, so really, you come across as trying to build one hell of a strawman here.
I'll also wholeheartedly disagree that "the game is sexist" is A) the only criticism of the game, as even just last page I mentionned some of my other issues with the game, and B) that it ruins the game wolesale. again, I've said in the past I think a lot of the poorly aged humor is a byproduct of pacing problems combined with comedy not being the forte of the writer far more than latent homophobia/sexism, and I can understand why people would like the game in spite of that.
Also, even if there is a general trend of 4 being criticized more harshly than 3 or 5 right now, it's not really a fixed trend ? You should have been around for the waiting period between Royale's announcement and it's release, people were pretty regularly bashing 5 and propping up 4 instead.
And, really, why does it bother you so much that me and others have some issues with 4 ? I've seen 5 take plenty of shit here I regularly disagreed wholeheartedly with and I've never had a problem with that.
Also, I guess it might be worth saying it, but... I don't enjoy having issues with 4, y'know ? I really would wish for nothing more than to like it as much as 3 and 5. I didn't played 4 with the intent to hate it. But I have issues with the game, and I think the issues are interesting to look at because of what they say about the game, about myself, and about how others think of it.
Edited by Yumil on Jan 14th 2021 at 1:25:01 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Eh, even if that's true, that line's a bit rude as a comment.
...Though I wish Nikkolas wouldn't use words like "undeniable fact" with such certainty. Sorry, but I noticed that's a thing you do.
Edited by fredhot16 on Jan 14th 2021 at 4:36:28 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.what on earth happened here
persona 4 is fine. maybe it gets criticized more because there's more to criticize. but it's really good, i really like it and it's still one of my favorite games. lord knows i like the cast of 4 more than 3, even if i think 3 is overall better written. 5, 5 Royal especially and specifically, hits the high notes of both.
speaking of 3,
i just hit december and... oh my god??? Chidori isn't dead?? Ryoji IS the twelve shadows?? aigis got shut down because she lost against him?? Ryoji was inside of me all along?? that's why aigis is obsessed with me, the WORLD is going to end and there's nothing we can do to stop it???
oh my god, i love this game, the twists actually caught me off guard (even if i kinda suspected them), and i love aigis. this game's story is so good.
but jesus, December 31st is not a lot of time to do social links... i hope i'll be able to finish Emperor, Star, Priestess, and Empress in time... PLUS aigis's social link?... i dont know if i'll be able to.
overall though, story and characters are, SO good. it actually totally makes up for the horrendous issues with gameplay.
Edited by EpicBleye on Jan 14th 2021 at 7:34:15 AM
"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-MaeOkay, to try bringing up a less disruptive topic:
At the end of 5, after you defeat Yaldobaoth and the Metaverse is dissolving, Morgana says a few lines about how there is no "real world" and that reality is defined by peoples' cognition. There's nothing wrong with it by itself; it's an interesting idea, it's written and delivered well, and it feels like a powerful statement of theme... except that it doesn't feel like it belongs in 5, since it's a game about how horrible people are due to "cognitive distortions" (except for Futaba, whose cognition problems are deeply damaging to her instead of the people around her). It doesn't really fit to say that there is no objective reality given what's happened in the plot up to that point. It feels like a line from a different game. From what I know of Royal's final semester, I think it would have fit there, but I was playing vanilla.
Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.I don't think the concepts are actually all that opposed. The fact cognition can recreate the entire world and the cognitive distortions of a palace are two sides of the same coin : if the whole world decided to see the world the way a palace ruler does, then it just would become the reality like the old one never was. That's the exact mechanism Yaldabaoth uses to rise to power. When enough people wishes for his specific cogntion of the world to become true, that cognition because THE cognition, which is what grants them so much power over the world in the first place.
I think it fits within the lore, and it underscores neatly one of the greater point 5 was trying to get at which is a lot of what matters about reality isn't absolute facts but rather how much different people agree on those and what disagreeing on such things entails, such as the fact that getting lost far enough in your own delusions makes you unable to realize how much you're hurting people. It's a very direct application of exactly how power corrupts or how cults works, among other things, which is in line with persona's approach of making broad metaphors into very litteral things for you to confront.
I've said a couple times that changing hearts operates on some kind of principle there's an objective reality to attain since deviating from it is what's defined as "distortion" but it'd probably be more accurate to say the distortions are unexpected lapses between the current cognition defining the world and the palace ruler's cognition.
Edited by Yumil on Jan 14th 2021 at 2:42:33 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."![]()
![]()
a 3 remake with all the style, production quality, and game mechanic changes of 5 Royal would be
so, SO absolutely incredibly perfect
the game would need HEFTY additions to the full moon bosses to make them feel more important, and social links would need to be more in-depth (and some outright changed), but like
if it was 3's story and characters with 5's gameplay, i'd be, SO blown away
ESPECIALLY if you still get to choose the Female Protag
Edited by EpicBleye on Jan 14th 2021 at 8:00:47 AM
"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
