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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#60451: Dec 28th 2020 at 6:34:46 PM

Honestly, I think Persona's themes resonate even more with me now then ever and I'm 29 going 30.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Dec 28th 2020 at 10:20:03 AM

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#60453: Dec 28th 2020 at 6:46:14 PM

It kind of is about the message, but also how that message is conveyed. I don't think people object to the criticisms of power structures in P5 for example but there's often the sense they didn't explore the idea in the most interesting ways they could have.

One example of this is the thought experiment people sometimes bring up of what would happen if the thieves ran into a target whose heart they stole acknowledging their crimes, but realizing they simply are past the point of caring (this is just one example, there are others out there you could cite). If executed well it could have really been interesting because it meant the thieves would end up in a situation with a problem their powers cannot easily affect and challenge their beliefs in what they're doing or their ability to change anything.

But that would have a pretty strong chance of taking the story in a less power-fantasy centered direction, which is not really what P5 was going for. It would obviously depend on the execution and what "solution" is offered to that situation, but you can see from the broad strokes why this isn't necessarily something they wanted to do.

And I think that's at the root of some of this issue, which is that while I think some of it could be fixed by different or better execution, ultimately what some people want from the series is different from what it currently wants to provide. And in some ways that's more of a problem with the series (like the lack of gay options and female protag), in others not as much.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 28th 2020 at 11:51:23 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#60454: Dec 28th 2020 at 6:57:41 PM

That sorta goes back to what I was saying; power fantasies are entertaining to younger audiences, because in general...well teenagers are generally powerless to begin with. So playing a game that empowers them is liberating, even if it's not very nuanced, but its not trying to be. It wants people who play the games to feel empowered and liberated. The entire theme of Persona 5 "taking off your mask that you're forced to wear".

We're not teenagers who want media to make us feel liberated, we're adults who are more interested in exploring the implications and thematic relevance these themes have and how people react them. That would obviously require the game's writing to be actually geared more towards adults and less towards teenagers, but that was never the point of the game to begin with.

So in the end, it just feels like lipservice to us in service of just making teenagers look awesome. But hey, given how popular Persona 4 and 5 are with their target demographic, that lipservice pays off. These games know what they want to be, and fully embrace it.

Ironically, looking down on the series' writing for not being "mature" enough is exactly how the game treats the adult antagonists :V So in the end, we became what we hated.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#60455: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:05:02 PM

The newer Personas have always been a bit rocky with its messages (except ironically 3, since 'you are going to die' isn't something you can really argue with)

Edited by asterism on Dec 28th 2020 at 3:05:18 PM

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#60456: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:13:18 PM

Well 4 deals with dealing the general insecurities that come with being a teenager, and 5 deals with how the system exploits and takes advantage of said teenagers.

By comparison, 3 deals with Death, which is such a universal concept that anybody from any walk of life can understand it.

Like you said, 4 & 5's themes can be argued for or against; but you can't really argue against Death no matter who you are, because Death is one of the few truths that is absolute in the world.

I think it would be interesting for a Persona game to tackle the theme of having to grow up, and how the main cast would have to deal with that. You could have a set of protagonists who are just about the graduate College and head out into the real world. That is a similarly universal constant.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 28th 2020 at 10:16:08 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#60457: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:18:10 PM

on a completely different note, in Persona 3 i finally go to the beach!

mitsuru's dad is a pirate1? :ooo so cool

and, uh, a LOT more plot information dumped on me. wow.

i had a very, very touching and sweet moment with yukari out on the beach... i, uh, she might be best girl everyone, i dont know if i'm going to be able to get past the scene where we hug on the beach, its so sad and sweet and fdsafjdkff

oh, and the infamous operation babehunt... hurt, jesus christ it's almost going to make me cry, that's so disgusting and horrible and mean

i think need to stop playing for a little bit

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60458: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:22:29 PM

We have a Persona game about adult hardships and the like. It's called Catherine.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#60459: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:22:43 PM

[up][up]Ahh yes, the start of one of Persona's most infamous trends "Operation Babehunt". As a warning, its in 4 & 5 as well.

To 5's credit though, it's finally acknowledged how predatory and gross it is, so that might be the end of it.

[up]And that's why Catherine is the best Persona game that nobody cares about :V

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 28th 2020 at 10:23:27 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#60460: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:42:45 PM

We have a Persona game about adult hardships and the like. It's called Catherine.

I think Catherine has its fair share of issues in how it deals with its subject matter (I get the intent behind Vincent but I just kinda find myself wishing I was playing as one of his more interesting friends like Johnny or Orlando), but I do really admire the willingness of Atlus to make a game like that that tries to comment on the difficulty of adult relationships and such even if it stumbles, because it's something that's not super common in a lot of games.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#60461: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:46:12 PM

I'm surprisingly OK with 5 having a male protagonist only. Unlike the others you'd need pretty massive rewrites in this game for a FeMC, to work, particularly in her interactions with Kamoshida, Shido, and a lot of the Confidants.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#60462: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:56:47 PM

i had a very, very touching and sweet moment with yukari out on the beach... i, uh, she might be best girl everyone, i dont know if i'm going to be able to get past the scene where we hug on the beach, its so sad and sweet and fdsafjdkff

Yukari is good. Her social link in particular is among my favorites in the series. There's something about her bad relationship with her mother that always rang true for me.

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#60463: Dec 28th 2020 at 7:58:09 PM

Unlike the others you'd need pretty massive rewrites in this game for a Fe MC, to work, particularly in her interactions with Kamoshida, Shido, and a lot of the Confidants.

not really, honestly 5 would need virtually no changes.

Honestly, Kamoshida doesn't really need that much rewriting. He dislikes you because you stuck your nose where it didn't belong- his sexual harassment was specifically towards Ann and Shiho. At most it would really need a line where he makes a pass at you, and maybe a handful of dialogue choices changed such that Joker goes "yeah i've been there".

Shido is much the same way, with some writing changes where he writes you off as a delinquent and hysteric girl that was up to no good after dark, rather than a rowdy and aggressive teen boy

As for Confidants... all Yusuke needs to do is write you off as a potential model since you can't match Ann's beauty or whatever, and the only other Confidant that would even touch on Joker's gender would be Makoto's where you need to pretend to be her boyfriend, and quite frankly given her friend a confidant where she pretends you're her girlfriend instead would probably head down a more... LGBT centric topic.

though, they could just go the "yeah everyone is just cool with it" route, which is super idealistic but admittedly not to the game's themes mostoften

That... is admittedly much trickier. Makoto's Confidant is the only one that would need a huge rewrite, though.

Every other Confidant it just isn't ever relevant, outside of maybe a throwaway line here or there.

Edited by EpicBleye on Dec 28th 2020 at 10:59:51 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#60464: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:01:39 PM

Yeah, I've never really gotten the "it would need rewrites" defense since I'm sure that it is more of Atlus not caring rather than it being an insurmountable obstacle. And it is fine and all of you want to have a male MC and look at issues from a teenage boys perspective or whatever, but this all compounds with a bunch of other minute to minor issues and nitpicks people often have with the franchise, which we have discussed a few times before already.

Edited by Kakuzan on Dec 28th 2020 at 11:02:01 AM

Don't catch you slippin' now.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#60465: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:04:16 PM

Kamoshida was repulsive like that to all his female students, those two just had it the worse. Thats why theres a segment dedicated to all of the female students in the volleyball club lusting over him. He woild definitely try to be a creep towards a girl Mc because they started getting close to Ann like Shiho was.

And Shidos inability to keep his dick in his pants around women means he'd be trying to sexully assault a female Joker instead.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 28th 2020 at 8:06:01 AM

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EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
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#60466: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:08:10 PM

Kamoshida was repulsive like that to all his female students, those two just had it the worse.

not really? if you talk to many of the female student npcs or even listen to one of the animated cutscenes that feature kamoshida, a lot of the female students talk about how they have a crush on him or how handsome he is, and hate on ann for """Seducing""" him

its pretty apparent that Kamoshida is only as bad as he is towards Ann and Shiho

Edited by EpicBleye on Dec 28th 2020 at 11:08:37 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60467: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:08:15 PM

If you're changing the game's plot and character relationships to accommodate a female main character, you are in fact admitting the game would need rewrites to include a female main character.

Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#60468: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:08:22 PM

@Omega I get that, but then that leads to the weirdness surrounding Kasumi since it seems Kamoshida didn't try anything to her. I'm inclined to believe that he would've btrief something eventually, but then that lends itself to how he wouldn't try anything with a new girl (which the hypothetical female MC would be) right away.

[up][up] Also this. I don't find it that hard to believe that Kamoshida wouldn't try to get with literally every female student since it isn't like most abusers abuse literally everyone around then.

Edited by Kakuzan on Dec 28th 2020 at 11:10:02 AM

Don't catch you slippin' now.
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#60469: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:08:50 PM

He views them sexually in general, but Ann is his specific target of interest, hence why her cognition is the only one that's not a faceless blob. His assault of Shiho wasn't because of her, it was to punish Ann for brushing him off.

Bewitching Eyes
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#60470: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:09:22 PM

It goes without saying that it'd take effort to properly implement a female MC but that kind of thing is usually best decided early on where it's easier to delegate resources and plan things out.

Atlus could have added a Fe MC option to p5 if they really wanted to, it just wasn't what they planned.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#60471: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:10:39 PM

[up]x2 Till Royal made her not a faceless blob and made her something into a loyal sex minion in his Boss fight. To show that being close enough to Ann makes him distinguish Shiho from the rest as a lust object too.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 28th 2020 at 8:12:13 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#60472: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:13:46 PM

If you're changing the game's plot and character relationships to accommodate a female main character, you are in fact admitting the game would need rewrites to include a female main character.

what? I wrote down all the changes that would need to be made. It's maybe a handful of dialogue choices and one Confidant. That's it. The vast majority of the game needs virtually zero changes, and the Confidant could have the exact same topic and character beats, just reframing how they happen.

Unless you mean "switching pronouns and swapping some dialogue choices to make a bit more sense" as rewriting the whole story, which is a depressingly low bar to clear that any game with a gender choice does.

In any case, clearly it wasn't important to Atlus to do so, so it's a moot point anyway. I just hope they include gender choices in the future since nearly every self-insert JRPG seems to be able to do it just fine nowadays.

Edited by EpicBleye on Dec 28th 2020 at 11:16:12 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#60473: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:16:52 PM

Joker's arrest might pose a small problem, because there's no way in hell a teenage girl would get charged for assaulting an adult man.

I suppose it might serve as an early indicator of Shido's influence, but even then...

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EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#60474: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:19:30 PM

being marked as a delinquent, even as a teenage girl, would definitely be able to super negatively impact someone's life

i know it's been discussed on this thread before, but keep in mind that in japan, if you're accused of a crime at all that basically means you're guilty regardless of circumstances, i'm more than certain it would apply even if joker were a girl

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60475: Dec 28th 2020 at 8:19:44 PM

Honestly, no one's ever been against having a female optional lead. It would just take Royal longer than 2 years after the original to be released in that case. Which would actually be for the better since it would also make the 60 dollar price tag for Royal make more sense.


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