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Maybe in comparison to 4, but definitely not compared to SMT in general.
4 is the exception to the rule here, not 5. 5 is absolutely lighter in comparison to Persona 1 and 2, and about on par with 3 if we're being honest.
So its not that 5 is "unnecessarily dark", its that 4 is completely lighter and softer by comparison. To the point where the serial killer stuff feels a little out of place in what's otherwise an upbeat game.
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5 established pretty early on that society is corrupt and needs to change, so its themes are pretty consistent throughout.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 27th 2020 at 2:11:19 PM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.A review a while back of 1 and 2, actually finds them to be not all that dark compared what some people have hyped them up as being, funnily enough.
Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Dec 27th 2020 at 3:02:30 PM
Watch SymphogearPlotwise no, but I make the argument that what's "dark" is informed as much by the tone as it is the cut and dry events. Especially in the original version, 1 has a very oppressive tone with grungy environments, the methodical techno soundtrack, and the very stark presentation. There's bosses and a few villains, but aside from just how large your party is, you're mainly on your own as a group.
I'd disagree about 5 being as light as 3. 5's themes hit you over and over with the kind of can do, fuck the consequences anime energy about getting your problems solved. It treats the protagonists' anger as not only justified, but the driving force of the villains' downfall. Any morally ambiguous implications in the original game are swept aside with your party members so they can take down those oppressive adults. The soundtrack and visuals also firmly paint your protagonists as cool and stylish, while the villains are hideous. 5 makes a big game about being darker, but after Kamoshida, it's mostly skin-deep.
That's a pretty oversimplification of 5's narrative as a whole tbh. Which leads me to believe you either didn't like it or didn't play it.
5's themes are no more "beaten over your head" than 3 or 4's themes, and there's very little moral ambiguity in 3 outside of what happens with the Kirijos but they're painted pretty sympathetically for the most part, and are allies. Takuya is straight up evil, and Chidori is all but good by the time she sacrifices herself.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Yeah, I've had a similar discussion with other people arguing that sometimes the writing in persona does devolve a bit into screaming "THEMES" over the actual story, but while there's somewhat of a point to make about it... 5 really is no different from 4 or 3 in that regard.
4 doesn't really stop for any second to consider the reality implications of a bunch of teenagers deciding they can solve a murder case better than the police and that telling anyone about their powers is a mistake. Nor does it really stop to consider "maybe the truth really isn't worth pursuing" either.
The only one in the story who does so is a strawman who exists to be demolished, and the greatest bit of writing stemming from p4 was adachi growing to reject that mentality and rather use his mishantropy as something that sets him apart from the world rather than him being upfront about what everyone else is.
3 similarly beat you over with the idea you must accept the fatality of death in order to grow past it and live a fulfilling life. It even doubles down on that aspect with The Answer's story, depicting the protagonists about to bring a quasi end of the world because they aren't properly grieving, and when they do move on everything suddenly becomes extremely easy for them.
Again, it never really attempts to nuance the point. It goes so far as to have aigis regress back to being a machine and discarding her emotions into Metis just to show unhealthy the mentality is. Tayaka similarly is a strawman to demolish for that purpose.
5 really is no different than the previous games in that regard. The one aspect you could argue is that "being angry at corrupt people is a legitimate sentiment. Get Mad. Don't Forgive them" is a less easy to accept theme as "You must accept the inevitability of death" or "The truth will set you free", but it is treated the exact same way otherwise, and if the recent years are anything to go by, 5 is merely echoing a sentiment that is growing increasingly more widespread.
In fact, if you want to discuss moral ambiguity, I will say that Royale easily stole the spotlight and made the most ambiguous and interesting antagonist of persona and smt as a whole, and maybe my favorite villain of all fiction period. (Nyarly isn't really ambiguous and doesn't run for that category, go home p2 fans), so if you want moral ambiguity and legitimately disturbing questions that don't have a simple answer... 5 is miles ahead of the competition.
Edited by Yumil on Dec 27th 2020 at 9:59:41 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."Innocent Sin is a very goofy video game. The evil high school principal is the first boss right and then he Geronimo's after you beat him. You fight and otaku girl and enemies come out of bathroom stalls after using the toilet...
Like, it gets dark later on but there is a decent amount of levity even in the final dungeon. This is the game known for Hitler and his robots invade Japan and also aliens.
This is not to take anything away from a great game but I'd say the ending hits as hard as it does because the game is not particularly grim up until that point. It's shocking and powerful because of how out of left field it is compared to most of the game.
To clarify, I wasn't trying to say the games are especially subtle. 3 bashes you over the head with the death message. 5 I feel outside of Royal and the introduction doesn't do enough with the rebellion theme, despite how often it's expressed. Death's a very simple but universal experience, so going on about it felt pretty earned.
Like sure, the vanilla final boss halfheartedly tries to say that blind rage against the machine just feeds into his plan, but you're never truly challenged on that until the Royal finale. 5's about providing catharsis and an easy solution to defanging criminals than it is about challenging any of those assumptions, even if it seems like it has more to say.
It's why I consider Royal to be better, because it has a villain that gets to express the game's thematic points.
I don't know about that. Kamoshida is probably the darkest, but all the villain plots are pretty dark when you stop to think about them, especially since I'm pretty sure they're all based on real-life crimes.
I mean, I think tricking people into getting themselves into debt, and then forcing them to "pay off" the debt is a thing real criminal groups in Japan have been known to do.
Yeah, I'm unsure Kamoshida's crimes are the only one to be geniunely dark, but I will say a lot of the following villains hit comparatively weaker because they don't really impact the lives of the thieves. While the game does come up with a reason to take them down, often their crimes don't directly affect the thieves, or only as a reaction of the thieves meddling with the target in the first place, and often a specific member of the group rather than the whole. It gives a less gut-wrenching feel than the kamoshida section who goes out of their way to personally make the three founding thieves minus morgana suffer at every turn he gets.
Edited by Yumil on Dec 27th 2020 at 12:34:08 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."I think what often gets lost when people talk about "darkness" is that it's not just about the actual events, but the tone the work is going for and the overall experience of well, experiencing it.
P5 does try to have heavier moments and early in the game it does manage to create a surprisingly unpleasant (in a good way) experience of being a social outcast that everyone at best treats with casual contempt, at worst actively despises. I have to confess after Kamoshida I don't think anything ever made me feel anything comparable though.
5 is honestly pretty dark, unnecessarily so tbh.
5 isn't any darker than like an average battle shounen. It's hardly what I'd call a bleak game.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 27th 2020 at 9:25:51 AM
I suppose their choice of post-Kamoshida villains would make it rather difficult to bring that sense of oppression onto the whole party.
Oh God! Natural light!That's generally why they say the game peaked in its first arc; Kamoshida was a very personal enemy to all of the thieves at the time, and went out of his way of antagonizing them any way he could. By the time you fight him, all of that buildup made for one hell of a climax.
Not that the rest of the targets aren't personal but none of them received the same level of buildup as Kamoshida except for Shido, and even then he's only a personal enemy to Joker more than the rest of the group.
It wasn't until Maruki that the game really approached those same highs, being a personal obstacle that all of the thieves had to overcome.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I'm not sure if the direct impact is the reason the other villains have a weaker reception but then again there might be something to that since as far as them being actual characters, the other villains aren't that different from Kamoshida in terms of how they're presented or any potential complexities.
Exactly. Kamoshida honestly isn't that interesting of a villain, its his influence that made him memorable. His presence was constant felt even when you weren't directly facing him.
The others have influence too, but with the exception of Shido, none of them really had that same constant presence.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 27th 2020 at 7:36:02 AM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.The fact he was constantly in your face definitely helped. The next three are more about individual issues, like Morgana throwing a hissy fit or Yusuke being in denial.
Well four if you include Futaba's, but I think that is a strong point of the game as well. Not quite as good as the first, but still strong.
Edited by deludedmusings on Dec 27th 2020 at 10:44:23 PM
Well, Okumura's plan to sell off his daughter comes before the Thieves' involvement.
Yeah, futaba's dungeon is a high point of the main story too but it doesn't really have a villain. It just has persona shadow that happens to embody the will to live of their host, which just sells how bad futaba's depression is. The boss of the actual palace is nothing to write home about as an actual antagonist, it's an obstacle for her to overcome.
That's also why I like the story of the confidents so much : a lot of them work a lot better in the context of focusing on one character at the time.
Edited by Yumil on Dec 27th 2020 at 1:48:34 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

I'd very much disagree on the "goofy humor" part. p5 doesn't strike me as very goofy in it's humor, since most of it is more on the "witty dialogue option" style than anything else. While 5 is certainly capable of goofy comedy at points, 3 also had several scenes that clearly served a comedic purpose and were played as such too (there's a litteral high school scene that is dedicated to set-up half your female S Ls to almost realize you've been double-dating, only to have Junpei and Kenji realize what's about to happen and pull insane stunts to help you dodge the bullet, for crying out loud.). And that's without even getting into Junpei's antics to lighten up the mood, a trait that isn't nearly as much played up for Ryuji/Yosuke. (Well, yosuke tries, but it's basically canon that he's terrible at it).
I'm also not really seeing the "kids doing everything." opposition between 3 and the other two. Like, that's also there in 3, the main cast is all kids. Sure, you can argue that there's the policeman seeling you weapons and Mitsuru's dad/Ikutsuki in the mix too, but that's not really that far removed from Sojiro and Sae eventually pitching in to help, and Sae actually being very instrumental to getting Shido and his conspiracy actually tried for their crimes.
I think Very Melon's description of "Idealistic but grounded" really hits what 5 was going for. 5's world is pretty clear on the matter that plenty of people get their lives routinely ruined by assholes in positions of power, and all the thieves can hope to do is help mending some of the damage caused, with long-term social reform being moslty a long-term goal that will need a lot of effort to make happen. While I'd very much disagree with memers's assessment that p5 is somehow "unnecessarily dark", being optimistic and idealistic doesn't make a work necessarily upbeat either.
Edited by Yumil on Dec 27th 2020 at 7:40:31 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."