Persona series

Squash that bug.

Swat that fly.

Beat him on the first try

Whoever made a dedicated page for the P1 manga is my new best friend.

So you know, about the new arc in Royal, while the new antagonist does some downright shady stuff... the fact that he un-rapes Shiho, un-orphans Futaba, and revives, like, actually revives, everyone's dead loves ones is kind of a "mic-drop" moment for me. I can't figure out how to argue against him without seeming like a complete tool.

I don't really think Maruki time traveled to ensure Shiho was never raped just more he erased her memory of it. And he didn't unorphan Futaba or Haru, just gave them cognitive copies of their parents, not literally revived them from the dead. My argument against that is that it's not healing, it's repressing. Something not good in the long term.

Maruki is definitely the best villain in the series ever since Adachi.

Well if he succeeds and it becones "Real" then even then they will truly be alive, of course the PT want to sotp him before it becomes permanent. Because his messiah complex can definitely be dangerous, just as he's right that no amount of living in reality can hope those who can't be helped(Like his girlfriend who started it all).

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Aug 20th 2020 at 8:16:51 AM

It is important to note that Siho was making steps towards recovery thanks to the support of Ann so repressing Siho would have destroyed the progress she's made but luckily it never reached that point since no one remembered.

Like imagine how traumatizing it would be to Futaba and Haru to see their parents again only to have to see them die again if that dream ended like that. And even if the cognitive versions become real, it doesn't change that they aren't the same people brought back from the dead.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 20th 2020 at 9:21:37 AM

When it becomes truth, that would never happen. Currently it is just a dream, but if he continued it would have been as real as anything else. So defeating him past that point wouldn't have returned things back to normal. Same for if Yaldy Boat had succeeded at permanently fusing Mementos and reality he would destroy civilization to build his orderly one, and removing Mementos by defeating him wouldn't fix that.

But, I mean, doesn't that basically imply that some people are "better off" traumatized, or abused, or dead? That some people only exist to die to further the "character development" of other people (insert YA novel joke here)? See what I mean when I say the counter-arguments make you look like a prick?

Edited by HamburgerTime on Aug 20th 2020 at 12:23:33 PM

I mean, Shiho didn't have to suffer the way she did. Someone could've spoken up, or called the police, or got her therapy, or something. But not a one did until the game starts. Even the vanilla game itself kinda forgets about her for the most part aside from as a motivator for Ann.

I mean, isn't that the decision each and every single main character of the game chose for themselves ? That they'd rather take the trauma again if not doing so means losing out on everything they gained from it ? Sure, it's prickish to say from an outsider perspective, but what do we say if the victims are the one making that choice ?

Obviously that's not something you can generalize, something the game does admit, ("plenty of people would probably be better off in your reality") but that's the usual downside of doing something unilaterally without asking people : if some people refuse Takuto's plan for themselves, and since you either defeat him and undo everything or shut up and accept it with no in-between, are they wrong for opposing him ? Even if the people who benefit from Takuto are in majority, does the minority has to shut up and take it ?

As for the existence of other people only existing for the character developments of others... you do realize you could apply that point to Takuto's world too, right ? Like, when Futaba decides she'd rather keep the life where she overcame depression instead of never having one, Wakaba immediately goes back to being dead without a say in this. Same goes for Makoto's dad. Same for Shiho. You could reduce this to say they were only brought back because they were significant to the character development of other people. I'm not sure which side benefits from examining that angle too hard.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 21st 2020 at 11:04:28 AM

Speaking of which, can we just talk about how Kamoshida's boss fight in Royal just ramps up the hatred for him even more, which I didn't think was even possible?

Gah, the bunny Shiho will make me feel sick till i die. Like WHY!??

Especially the part where we have to fight her and she's weak to physical.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 21st 2020 at 7:14:10 AM

That's in such poor taste it borders on offensive.

Wait how does Royal make Kamoshida worse?

He has a cognitive shiho he uses for his boss fight. In a not-playboy-but-almost bunny suit. Compeltely submissive to him, of course, because of course it would be.

from experience, it's actually worse, she's just weak to EVERYTHING.

Really gives that extra kick on the dog.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 21st 2020 at 4:59:34 PM

And he also forces Mishima to help him out.

Holy fuck

Shit really? Didn't check that out.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 21st 2020 at 8:09:24 AM

A flaw I also see in the arguments against Maruki is the fact that not everyone who experiences great hardship rises above it. Some are just completely broken. So I don't think the Thieves have the right to make that decision for those people, but, of course, that conversely means Maruki doesn't have the right to make the decision for those whose lives have been improved by rising above hardship. So is who's "right" just dependent on which of those groups is larger...?

My head hurts, in a good way! I love complicated ethical dilemmas!

(x17) Small correction, though, it’s stated multiple times in-game that Wakaba and Okumura weren’t just cognitive beings; they were the real ones literally brought back from the dead, even before the merge in February. Kinda lowballing him there.

Come to think of it, was it ever mentioned how Marukiland affected the PT’s targets? There’s obviously Okumura, and Madarame turns into a good father in the bad ending, does that mean Kaneshiro never committed any crimes either (and Shiho got unraped)?

There's just no beating an implied rapist as a first villain. That's the definite kind of horribleness that money schemes, politics, or arranged marage can't really compare to, even if the others aren't great in of themselves. There's just no topping that kind of personal hatred, even if the game ultimately says very little on what he might or might not have done to Shiho.

And here lies the one point where Takuto's philosophy is flawed by his own personnal trauma. Takuto makes that very point you just made in the game : "I know it's better for the individual to overcome adversity, but the world doesn't always make that possible ! Every one should have the right to run away from that when it becomes too much !", seemingly not realizing that since he can rewrite reality entirely, he could create a reality where everyone will always be able to overcome their hardships instead of making everyone run away.

as for whether Takuto the thieves are right, the simple answer is both. Or neither, depending on how you see it. Which is why neither side will back down and will end up fighting despite both having nothing but good intentions. You know how science is, at the core, built on Axioms ? Things we don't have the means to actually prove, but have never been conclusively disproven and are "evident enough" we can take them for true, and most scientific demonstrations ultimately involve one of those ? I'm pretty sure opinions and beliefs work the same way. Trace back far enough and we all believe in general assumptions about life we can't prove but hold as such and build our beliefs on. And as such, people with opposite axioms will never see life the same way, at best understanding why the other thinks that way.

We get a passive mention that most of the targets didn't commit crimes, yeah. Even shido got arrested for merely staging a coup against the government, meaning he didn't became prime minister.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 22nd 2020 at 11:40:07 AM