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OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#59851: Aug 1st 2020 at 10:54:15 PM

Heck Shidos shadow actually shows more respect to the PT, including Joker, when they win than his real self. Right down to makin gun it a one on one duel near the end in Royal.

So we find out Shido has some actually decent qualities he has completely repressed to "Make Japan Great Again"TM.

[up] Yeah the Red eyes was used for that reason in Persona 2 and Metis in 3. It was P4 they switched it up and made it all Yellow. Even when controlled by a malevolent entity who is associated with red like Kagutsuchu doesnt do it with his Persona User Shadow Clones

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Aug 1st 2020 at 10:55:57 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59852: Aug 1st 2020 at 10:56:08 PM

But the shadows of the villains in P5 have the same goals as their real life counterparts. Just with more freedom and privacy to act.

[up] Shido: We are going to build a wall and make Philippines pay for it.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 1st 2020 at 10:56:52 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#59853: Aug 1st 2020 at 10:57:15 PM

Which says a lot about their ego that theyre suppressing a ton of their megalomaniacal feelings.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59854: Aug 1st 2020 at 10:58:37 PM

Then again the thieves’s shadows also have the same goals as their real life selves so hmmm.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#59855: Aug 1st 2020 at 11:00:41 PM

Their real selves dont act on their feelings and keep it bottled up.

Working together to lash out, especially when they arent being influenced by outsiders perceiving them differently, allowed them to be honest.

Also much like Yamaoka was a Persona for Nanjo we have Kasumis sister who is also her persona, to show how they were each others shadow.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Aug 1st 2020 at 11:02:42 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59856: Aug 1st 2020 at 11:00:52 PM

I mean, yeah, thankfully for most people, not everyone's shadow, as in the part of themselves they repress, is literally self-sabotaging themselves, because I'm pretty sure it'd be a symptom of deep depression.

Hell, I just pretty much described Futaba there, and. Yeah.

Also, yeah, Shadow shido cares a lot more about stuff than real shido. Shadow Shido actually recognizes Joker seeing him without his mask, and Shadow Shido actually pieces together who Akechi is. I don't know if it's a very positive trait, but the game does say somewhat that his shadow selve is more perceptive than him.

Huh. I used to be pretty eeeeeeh'd at all the jokes about Shido and Steven Armstrong, since Shido's ideology ends up being the reverse of Armstrong, but Shadow Shido does share some of Armstrong's traits.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 1st 2020 at 8:05:01 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59857: Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:57:05 AM

@Yumil

Of course a criticism of P5 that has been around since the beginning is that "stealing treasures/hearts" comes off a helluva lot like brainwashing. Our heroes go into the villain's world, tinker around in it, and then suddenly, BOOM, unrepentant rapists become Mr. Weepy for all the crimes they've committed. Had the Phantom Thieves not done what they did, our villains would remain as they were so however you wanna interpret it, they fucked around in the bad guys' minds and made them act and feel different than they did before.

Not very Chaos of them to seemingly force their morals onto these people against their will....

And of course the truths our heroes in P4 have to accept are pretty minor. That's how it would be for all normal teenagers ever. There's nothing really wrong with Kanji except his feeling run down by how others think of him and so he over-compensates, reacting entirely to how others perceive him which results in him having zero self-esteem. He's just a normal boy who likes sewing but others want him to think this nothing hobby is a world-ending disaster that must define every aspect of his life. But it's not. P4 is about the heroes coming to accept themselves in spite of how others view them. They become their own individuals.

in spite of how anime it is, the Investigation Team's problems are all entirely down-to-earth. They're mundane, even petty, but mundane and petty things ruin the lives of children all the time.

I dunno what horrid truth they should be facing. "I murderd my parents but didn't want to admit to myself all this time"?

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59858: Aug 2nd 2020 at 2:09:54 AM

I don't know what your first pragraph has to do with anything I said ? Aside maybe from the part about mementos targets from two posts ago, where none of what you just said contradicts the fact that most of them do feel some amount of regret or empathy deep down, it's just that it'll never come to the surface until the P Ts steal their hearts, which I do agree with.

as for your second paragraph/last sentence, oh, I dunno, Kanji really being gay ? Naoto really being trans ? Yukiko geniunely disliking working at the inn and wanting to do something else in her life ? Rise truly wanting to leave the idol business ? the stuff futaba goes through in p5 ? the idea from the Anime of Yu having to admit he doesn't actually cares about the "truth" and couldn't bear to go on without his friends ?

You know, basically all the issues the game presents as possible for those characters to have/Everything every other shadow in persona has stood for ?

Things a lot of real life teenagers would be going through, and which having would be a lot harder to deal with because they go against societal norms instead of the truth being that they were perfectly conform to societal norms all along ?

It's not like everyone before me hasn't pointed this out like a million times.

and, you see, if you want to say that it makes sense that ordinary teenagers have no deep, hard to accept issues because of course, they're ordinary teeangers, I disagree, but I can get behind that reasoning because it's a game made in 2008. But here's the logical conclusion : the game should never have featured the shadow selves so prominently and pretend they were about a lot more than they actually are, because it's just entirely baiting your audience who might actually be interested in that premise but not ordinary teenagers having ordinary issues.

And, like, if the game didn't even tried to pretend it was about deeper stuff than ordinary teenagers issues, that'd be one thing. But when your boss battle theme is called "I'll face myself", I feel pretty confident to say the game believes it is dealing with matters a lot more complex than "pretty minor truths" or at least wants to pretend it does. So if what you say is true, the corolarry is that p4 is a fundamentally dishonest game about what it's about, which in turn is pretty massively hypocritical for a game that's about THE TRUTH.

Which brings me back to the fact that the shadow selves end up being a massive disservice to the game, not a boon.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:24:11 AM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#59859: Aug 2nd 2020 at 2:22:54 AM

There are different flavors of Chaos, as spinoff games make abundantly clear.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59860: Aug 2nd 2020 at 2:31:47 AM

Oh, wait, hang on, I think I found what bugs me about this I couldn't quite word.

You put forth this idea that the point of the shadow selves is the result of other people projecting what they think they are unto them, and as a result, it's normal that everyone actually has minor issues and it's normal that everything turns out dandy. Because the problem is the other's perceptions, and that they need to learn to see themselves for who they are without relying on the perception of others.

The problem is, everything in this sentence runs contrary to the actual handling of the theme of the shadows in game.

Because, if the shadows really are just other people's exagerrations of how one is perceived and not a real thing, then everyone, ever, but mostly mitsuo, are right. "You're not me." is true, if you follow that logic. Moreover, the characters are absolutely right to reject their shadow, if the shadows are acutally other people's preconception of a person, as accepting them would mean they accept the caricatural perception other people have of them for who they are.

But the problem is that it's not what the game says. The game says that mitsuo was wrong for rejecting his shadow. The game says you must accept your shadow to actually grow as a person. The game keeps treating the shadow as the real issue and not a deformation coming from other people, because that's the entire point of using a shadow selve in the first place. Because that's what give the notion of shadow it's narrative weight.

P4 tries to do two different, drastically opposed things with the shadow selves, and neither work correctly as a result. It wants to be about people tearing down how other people see them, but it also wants to be about "facing yourself", admitting the existence of the worst part of yourself, and says something more meaningful than it can, so it pulls the "it's how other people see you" to justify the cast not actually be a bunch of assholes. It's a thematical and emotionnal contradiction.

I hate this. I hate it and it makes me immensely glad 4 is alone in doing this within the rest of modern persona.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:39:13 AM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59861: Aug 2nd 2020 at 2:37:59 AM

[up][up][up] Sure others have talked about it and still others have countered the criticism. Just because Kanji isn't gay (which I'm actually on the fence about, he might be) and Naoto isn't trans doesn't mean they don't face discrimination or hardship. They didn't imagine up their problems, their problems come from the very real discrimination they have endured for their failure to match traditional gender norms. Naoto wanting to succeed as a female detective in a "boys club" like a police department isn't any less of a worthy or interesting character arc.

You're right that LGBTQ teenagers have a lot of problems too because of their sexuality orgender identity but a couple things. 1. That doesn't mean P4 has to specifically tackle those issues as the issues it does tackle are still quite common problems for kids growing up. 2. This hasn't stopped people from interpreting Kanji and Naoto along those lines. I don't mind if somebody wants to see Kanji and Naoto as gay and trans representation in video games, if their arcs help them. So it's not even like, intentional or not, P4 fails to give some people this more "profound truth" or whatever.

And facing yourself doesn't have to be the aforementioned I murdered my parents. Facing yourself just means, like, Yosuke admitting his resentments and jealousies. It just can mean acknowledging a part of yourself that you have tried to repress out ofshame,like Chie honestly feeling some thrill about how Yukiko has to depend on her. Nobody wants to admit they are selfish, that they like that others need them and would fuckin' fall apart without them. But it's still a part of who we are. A Shadow is not some great evil we keep tucked away, it's just the biases and flaws every human being has.

Edited by Nikkolas on Aug 2nd 2020 at 2:39:04 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59862: Aug 2nd 2020 at 2:58:21 AM

The question isn't whether or not naoto being trans is a less interesting character arc than naoto facing discrimination in a male career path. In a vacuum, both arcs are great.

The problem is, one is significantly more relevant to a game whose theme is "face the truth, even if it's painful" than the other. Unless you want to argue that this isn't actually p4's theme.

and that's a thing p4 pulls everywhere. It baits you with an issue that looks like it might actually be painful to face, and then turns around and pull out a much easier to deal with situation.

What makes a story work isn't the individual values of it's parts, but the sum of the ensemble. You need your arcs and plot beats to support the theme of your game, otherwise you end up with things like Broken Aesop and a story that doesn't hit has hard as it could. That's a basic storytelling rule that p4 stomps over.

You're right that in both case they already faced actual, real hardship in the form of discrimination, but the difference is in how it affects the future : if they'll all end up conforming to society anyway the discrimination will go away, so there's no need to think about this any further. If the reality was that they are actually nonconform to society norms and they'll face this kind of shit for the rest of their lives if they dare try to be who they really are, this makes being who you are a much more complicated, ambitious task to undertake.

Whether the future will be painful or easy is not a trivial question that doesn't matter, especially not in a story about teenagers who have most of their lives ahead of them, not behind.

As others have systematically answered to the people who countered that criticism, there's nothing wrong with Yukiko agreeing in a vacuum that she actually wants to take care of the inn. But it's wrong that Every single character in p4 pulls this stunt, because it undermines the litteral theme of the game. It's easy to face the truth when it's the easiest answer to accept, so it's not bold to say "face the truth".

I never said that p4 had to tackle LGBT issues. And i really don't care for the fact some people read an alternate interpretation into it. I'm talking about authorial intent here, and it's pointedly not what it was. That's not my point and you're misconstruing me if that's what you got from that.

My point is that there are plenty of hard truths for a teenager to deal with, without going to unrealistic lengths of "I killed my parents".

You keep pulling this example of muh killing my parents, but you seem to miss the fact there's an in-between "I killed my parents" and "I just really like sewing" that is realistic for a teenager to face in their lives. Getting over the broken relationship of your parents, getting over the death of a loved one, getting over the fact you're not actually good at what you like to do, you know, the stuff most of the social links are about ? Those that don't pull a "oh it was just other people's warped deformation of me, actually" ?

Just because there is another way to be just as much out of touch with your own theme than what p4 does by making the issues unrealistic, doesn't make p4 any better for missing this entirely with the main cast.

"A shadow isn't some great evil tucked away" Yes, that is true. But the shadows in this game appears themselves as a great evil tucked away, though. And the game intentionally plays them up as such, because it's so much more exciting to confront the cackling villain than the you again but slightly depressed and self-bashing.

P4 intentionally thrives on misrepresenting the shadows in order to build up tension and entertainment.

But in turn, it still wants you to accept those shadows at the end of the day, so it can appear as more meaningful than it actually is. it's fundamentally dishonest.

And, yeah, referring to my above post for the longer version, but : this idea that you have to accept your shadow completely contradicts the idea that a shadow is actually distorted by other people's perceptions and therefore isn't actually representative of you.

It's literally the single greatest mistake p4 could have made as far as i'm concerned. i'd have preferred not liking Nanako as far as I'm concerned.

Also, while a shadow isn't a great evil tucked away, the idea of a shadow selve inherently calls for something you actually wouldn't like to admit to yourself, or that have intentionally repressed, not just realizing you're mildly selfish.

I've said it before, i'll say it again : Futaba, Metis and Shadow Yu are much, much better use of the shadow selve idea than everything P4 has done with it because their mere existence says something meaningful about the characters they're the shadow of.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 2nd 2020 at 12:18:15 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
TrueShadow1 Since: Dec, 2012
#59863: Aug 2nd 2020 at 4:01:59 AM

It's been ages since I've played P4, so I may misremember some things.

What I remember is most party members don't actually start with denying their Shadows. Most of them are just confused and puzzled about the entire thing before the Shadows reveal what they actually represent, and that's when they start getting agitated and starting towards the "You're not me!" shtick. Naoto was totally cool with her Shadow before the party arrives IIRC.

The Midnight Channel does affect the Shadows of the kidnapping victims, but it seems to be only on the surface level. They don't actually change what they represent. Note that the non-victim Shadows, i.e. Chie and Yosuke don't bother with the entire fancy dungeon thing and just cut straight to the chase.

In a sense, "Princess Yukiko" or "Mad Scientist Naoto" are kind of the General Teddie to Shadow Labrys. Kind of, because they're not totally the same. But they have the same purpose, to obscure the truth about what the shadows represent, before the party confronts them and the shadows reveal what they really are.

Also we're talking about "going with what society expects", but only Yukiko and Rise does that? Yosuke's S.Link is about getting over his inferiority complex towards Yu, Chie is finding out what she wants to do in the future, and Kanji and Naoto are both full-blown "screw gender roles". (I don't remember much of the non-party members S.Link, so no comments there).

Edited by TrueShadow1 on Aug 2nd 2020 at 6:12:46 PM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59864: Aug 2nd 2020 at 4:31:52 AM

Yeah, the shadows are a bait-and switch that hide the real issue. The game uses this bait-and switch to create tension and push the characters to try rejecting the shadow so that it provides an appropriate lead-up to the boss battle, after which it turns around basically says "SIKE" and reveals the real issue during the boss fight, or sometimes after it.

My point isn't that it doesn't make sense from the mechanics of the world, i'm saying this feels extremely fake and fabricated to cause drama from an emotionnal and thematical standpoint. This setup combined with the fact we know basically nothing about the characters at the time they're kidnapped means we don't have the knowledge/investment to really feel about all this, we just go " Oh, so this is what this character is about. Oh, looks like it isn't, actually. Okay.".

And that the way events play out end up saying the reverse of what the game intends. Accept yourself for who you are, except for truly repugnant parts of yourselves, because those are just distortions coming from other people's perception. The aesop ends up weaker for it.

And yeah, not ALL party members are about going against societal norms, so I guess it'd be more fair that everytime a party member's arc seem to be about societal norms, it ends up settling for much tamer.

Naoto's SL didn't strike me as particularly "screw gender roles" though, and more about remembering the childish joy of playing detective. I do agree that Kanji's SL DOES end up saying "screw gender roles", and that notwithstanding his SL is probably one of the bests of the game.

But, again, it's a matter of managing expectations. Kanji's SL legitimately being "screw gender roles" would feel more powerful if we got that from the get go instead of building up expectations of a lot more (in the sense he's the only one who's arc ends up saying that despite the fact it baits us into thinking it's gonna be the case for at least three more persons).

Also, to complete the lineup, teddie's SL is about deciding it doesn't matter if he's not human and actually a Shadow, which while a bit of a more metaphorical aesop is probably on of the better S Ls of p4 too.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:34:07 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
TrueShadow1 Since: Dec, 2012
#59865: Aug 2nd 2020 at 7:09:04 AM

Is that how it played out? IIRC the "SIKE" moments happen a bit before the "You're not me!". I at least remember Shadow Kanji talking about how he dislikes girls because they judge him for his hobby before the boss battle.

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59866: Aug 2nd 2020 at 8:17:19 AM

Well, it's kind of a tricky question, because it's hard to really notice the first time until the game has already pulled the rug on you, y'know ? But yeah, bosses generally start getting at the real thing in the pre-boss banter, for a good bit of them (yukiko, kanji, a bit rise, soooorta Naoto), but it starts becoming truly obvious as the boss fight starts. Kanji especially becomes obvious because at some point he just starts to spam "accept me, accept me !", and from then on it's kinda easier to notice the pattern.

Unrelated, but I've discovered that ps3 emulation of P 4 A is possible on my machine since a 2D fighting game isn't really pushing the limits of a ps3, so I picked it up. And I gotta say, it goes a pretty long way to get some goodwill back at the cast of p4 to see their inner pespective on the various scenes of the game, as you can really see how they react to the average joke from the base game. Yosuke always tries to lighten up the ambiance but is actually terrible at it, but at the same time has nothing but praise for Kanji when he's asked to describe him, Yu reads everyone in the gang like an open book, Chie does find yosuke and teddy endearing deep down... It doesn't really makes 4 better on that font in my eyes, but it comforts me in my idea that I hate the way the writer fumbled this more than I hate the actual characters of p4.

Although, one of the lines from shadow labrys to Chie about how she just wants to become a cop to be violent with people really do be hitting different now.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 2nd 2020 at 5:19:24 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#59867: Aug 2nd 2020 at 10:33:47 AM

I mentioned this in a discussion we had that got deleted with the posts, but the main issue I had with P4 on a thematic level is that for a game that puts so much emphasis on "you must search for and accept the truth, no matter what it is", most of the "truths" the characters have to accept feel...underwhelming? Lacking in impact?

I feel like with that kind of concept having the shadows represent something more unpleasant like a deep personal flaw or something horrible that the characters have done in the past is much more fitting and thematically stronger concept. I'm not saying that would be the only way to improve upon it or that every character's shadow would have to represent some kind of Awful Truth but that would have been better than what we got IMO. I'm actually surprised that the anime had the concept of Shadow Yu who doesn't care about finding the truth, because that's the kind of thing I would have expected to be in the game and for some reason it isn't.

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#59868: Aug 2nd 2020 at 10:35:40 AM

Persona Q kinda works that in.

With Persona 4 the prevailing message just seemed to be "reach out for the truth that what society tells you is what's best for you, and never question it."

Edited by RodimusMinor on Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:35:58 PM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59869: Aug 2nd 2020 at 12:24:49 PM

I think a lot of it is a matter of build up, and of place in a story. You can make anything look impressive by highlighting it's value throughout the story you tell. the amazing feat that closes a story and makes you gives you the biggest sentiment of accomplishment is another work's starter feat. The culmination of someone's arc that moves you to tears is another character's starting point.

But p4 has this habit of luring you in with a shadow that's generally frankly disturbing (I'm still somewhat amazed at how far they were willing to go for shadow rise), so when the comparably less impressive truth gets out, your natural reaction is "Oh okay. That's it, then I guess."

Shadow Yu being about how Yu would choose his friends over the truth without hesitation if he had to choose isn't a very grave flaw in a vacuum, but because of it's thematical resonance, it's timing of introduction during the story, and because the game doesn't bait-and-switch you, it hits with the weight it's expected to have.

As for why it's not in the game, I'm gonna assume they just didn't wanted to commit to giving a very defined personality to Yu, since the game does indeed like to use Yosuke as a mouthpiece to Yu in the first place.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 2nd 2020 at 9:31:22 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59870: Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:30:23 PM

[up] Speaking of using Yosuke as a mouthpiece for Yu, that's sort of why i'm confused why Rise gives all the credit to Yu and crushes on him for saving her when Yosuke had the most interaction with her both pre TV world and during the rescue. Shouldn't Rise give Yosuke credit or was she seduced by Yu's MC powers?

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:32:04 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#59871: Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:33:15 PM

[up]

It's Yosuke. That's why.cool

One Strip! One Strip!
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59872: Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:34:33 PM

[up] She must have realized he was sloppy goods.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#59873: Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:36:21 PM

Well, that's also the fact that the last girl he liked not only died before he could go on a date with her, but hated him as well.

So he might not even want to ask her out what with still mourning Saki.

But that admittedly doesn't answer you question of why she's not into him.

One Strip! One Strip!
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59874: Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:37:26 PM

She didn't really hate him, Yosuke just thought she did.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59875: Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:37:46 PM

[up][up] Chicks dig the MC. No way about it.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:39:02 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

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