Persona series

Oh yeah, I never really talked about Nanako here, so here goes one thing : I felt nanako was pretty eeeeeh at the start of p4. Aside from the fact I hate the "everyday's great at your junes" routine, I felt the game was trying to make me empathize for her being alone at the house and her dad not taking care of her, but. Here's the thing.

I may have been older than nanako when it happened to me, but I also lived with a single parent who wasn't at home for most of the day, to the point I had to take up basic cooking so that dinner would be ready by the time they'd get home, and other basic household stuff. And I never had a problem with it. If anything, I liked being alone after school and I never felt abandoned. So when the gamewas trying to make me feel bad for her being alone despite the fact she herself said it she was doing fine, I was inclined to believe her and leave her alone.

Fortunately, the game quickly grew out of that phase and focused on stuff that landed a lot better emotionally. And she has this great quality that you can also see in Sojiro in p5 that despite the fact your relationship evolves a lot over the course of the game, the social link development flows in almost semalessly with the plot developments so it feels really solid. Contrast with party members S Ls who feel disconnected from the main plot. So yeah, props to p4 for not fucking this one up, since I do agree that actively disliking nanako is a bit of a death sentence for the rest of the game because it speaks of a pretty big disagreement with the writing.

As for Adachi, while I absolutely do agree on your read that he does everything out of "boredom" and that even the whole cackling maniac thing is an act that hides how empty he is inside, I don't think that light yagami is a very good comparison since light's own boredom is merely the spark that starts the story of death note. Light quickly finds a goal for himself, which devolves into megalomania, and he dies still convinced of the righteousness of his cause.

Adachi's boredom is a lot more central to his character, as it's his motivation for everything, and his development in p4g/p4au has him learn to stop projecting that boredom unto other people, and acknowledge that it's his own stupid decisions that got him there, and that there is some merit to the bullshit Yu likes to spout.

(edit : although weirdguy does get at something true : both would have been ordinary people if they didn't got their hands on a supernatural power, but adachi would still have been a pretty big misanthrope, while we get to see that Light without the death note would have been a pretty nice guy.).

And yes, I do agree the true ending is actually better for adachi, because he finally manages to connect with some people (Yu and Dojima, and it's implied by 4G that he was sincerley distraught at Nanako getting involved into this mess) and starts living his life according to some rules he takes some pride in following (most importantly, making sure he does go to jail and pay for his crimes, and go above and beyond to stop people from interfering with that).

Izanami has this super weird thing in that she is almost literally a repeat of ameno-sagiri. She doesn't bring anything new to the table aside from explanations of the plot that could've been given to ameno instead. Or rather, Izanami should have popped up immediately isntead of ame-no, since either one can fill for that role but izanami has the whole contrast to izanagi thing going on.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 1st 2020 at 3:27:04 PM

I think instead of Ameno Sagiri, Adachi's persona should have gone out of control and become an evil version of Izanagi no Okami, then the True Final Boss would be Izanami instead. Take Amengo Sagiri out entirely.

Nanako is a pretty well written character yeah. She's probably the best character in the game for adding to Inaba's small and comfy atmosphere.

Ameno-Sagiri is cool-looking but is otherwise the weak link as far as the villains go.

So I was separating all the IT into who could be in intimate relationships/poly unions.

The Investigation Team are just a perfect little poly family if old Japanese men in 2008 had any idea what that was. But the days of Best Girl and OT Ps are gone and it's plain to see, for example, Yosuke has clear borderline intimate relationship with Yu, Chie and Teddie. Yukiko and Chie are just as obvious with them also having feelings for Yu and Chie for Yosuke. Teddie, much as he mimics Yosuke's "look how straight I am!" male tenagerness, is far closer to the MC and Yosuke than any of the girls. And I would never come between Kanji and Naoto, one-sided or not. It just makes sense to not try to forcibly pair them all off.

But as pointed out to me, Rise is left out of all of this. To be fair, I kinda always forget about her and maybe I figured out why. Isn't she the only member of the team who has no special attachment to anyone in the team other than the MC? I guess Naoto since Kanj's feelings are one-sided? They all care for each other of course but Rise and sorta Naoto alone seem to lack a particularly close bond to at least one other person besides Yu.

And then we play Persona 4 Dancing all night and find out Kanami has more chemistry with Nanako and Dojima than anyone else.

The only time I *very briefly* considered a ship of a teenage girl with a grown ass adult. And then just nope'd out of it.

But yeah, I see Rise being grouped with Kanji and Naoto mainly because of being the same age/grade. That and Rise and Kanji had a pretty fun bantering in the drama CD.

Started NG+. Carrying over money and buying the good equipment means Yukiko's Castle is down in one day. Picked the two clubs I didn't do last time, even though Basketball is supposedly easier to max out. Not sure how Drama and Band compare in that way.

Nanako is notable for being well-written because will-written children are honestly pretty rare. She's a fully realized character with her own personality rather than just being an accessory to an adult character, and she acts like an elementary school kid rather than either a toddler but taller or a teenager but dumber. Ultimately, the greatest success of Nanako is that she feels like a person who happened to be seven years old, rather than a symbolic innocent to be protected or to provide some Wise Beyond Their Years insight at a dramatically appropriate point.

So here's something I've wondered about.

Adachi has a Persona. This fact makes Rise go all "this can't be!" And I can understand her consternation. A Persona in P4 is achieved when the person faces themselves and overcomes their weaknesses. By awakening to their Personas, they each became happier, healthier people.

Adachi is neither happy nor healthy. I find it fitting the word Izaami uses to describe him is "Emptiness" which is the word I associate with Mitsuo. However more clever he was, Adachi was also just trying to fill some void in his heart just like Mitsuo was.

So it's not so much that Adachi is evil, it's that he's a very disturbed man with issues as profound and crippling as anything our heroes endured.

So what exactly is the meaning of him having a Persona? He achieved one step more than Namatame but fell short of Yu. That's about all I got.

He got one from Izanami, same as Yu.

That's not how it worked, though. Their potential was stirred up but they had to achieve a Persona on their own. All she did was let them enter the TV world.

Hence why Namatame never had one.

Edited by Nikkolas on Aug 1st 2020 at 8:36:07 AM

I think it's because both Adachi and his shadow would be quite similar since he does accept himself in a twisted way.

So the moment Adachi got into the TV world his shadow would be all " Yeah he's good, time to become his persona "

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 1st 2020 at 8:37:14 AM

Namatame had the potential, but due to how his life had gone and believing he was saving folks he never had a reason to awaken it.

Adachi only gains access to it when Ameno-Sagiri was empowering him in the first place and letting him do all sorts of insane stuff in the TV World.

Kunino didnt do the same for Namatame.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Aug 1st 2020 at 8:40:03 AM

Wait is "Izanagi/Magatsu Izanagi were awakened by Izanami" just a fan theory? Have I been lied to this whole time?

Izanami did... something, but Yu and Adachi awakened the potential compared to Namatame who was kind of falling apart and couldn't seem to reason properly, or face his issues.

Adachi at least knows he is empty and entitled and hates pretty much everyone.

Edited by Blueace on Aug 1st 2020 at 11:45:16 AM

I think it's been stated that if an evil person meets their shadow then that shadow will be just like them.

Which Persona 5 does support.

Which sounds dumb, since a Shadow is supposed to be all about what is repressed or hidden from the world.

I guess evil really is our true face then.

I mean Adachi saw his repressed desires of murder and chaos in his shadow most likely and went " yeah i'm cool with that. "

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 1st 2020 at 9:15:55 AM

A shadow represents repressed good qualities along with the bad.

Which, y'know, is exactly what the P5 personas emphasize more. Their anger at things being done to them is something they repress to the point its their shadows dominant trait.

Meanwhile P4 Shadows go out of their way to dress like clowns and secretly not really be the things they are openly talking and dressing about as, which is nonsensical.

I mean...they are warped by perception. That's kinda the point of the Midnight Channel. Everything we see is what we want to see which is spectacle.

It's one of my major complaints with P5. After P4 establishes Shadows are not a true or complete picture of a person's self, P5 just says it's the exact opposite now. Shadow Kamoshida IS the true Kamoshida every bit Shadow Kanji WASN'T the true kanji.

Edited by Nikkolas on Aug 1st 2020 at 9:51:06 AM

P4 is comllete nonsense. They do show a major part of yourself thats under the mask, which is why the perception angle does not work.

Metis in P3 was a Shadow in all but name and was all of Aigis repressed emotions. She embodied an entire side of Aigis that was intentionally repressing that she even developed her own identity.

Shadow Labrys is similar. She was represented Labrys suppressed anger at what was done to her and her fellow androids, and acted in accordance to antagonize her other her other self to release said rage by lashing out. And the she developed her own ego and now exists separately from Labrys herself in Ultimax.

The whole "They arent the full picture" only works if people actually have multiple personas, which the later games has done everything in its power to say only special people are like that. While normies are stuck with the one person which can change but no multiple personas themselves.

P4 made more coherent sense when the shadows had red eyes, which the initial trailer for P4 even had with Shadow Yosuke, to show hoe they arent actually acting in accordance to their other self but act independent of them, gold eyes are the opposite of that, they represent the actual feelings of that person.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Aug 1st 2020 at 10:01:10 AM

I was just thinking about this topic earlier, why are the P4 character's shadows not treated as their real selves while the P5 character's are?

Because of the way people Perceive them via the Midnight Channel. It happened with Nametame during the point you can potentially get either the first Bad ending or the neutral ending.

Persona 5 Shadow's, meanwhile, are literally inside a Persons head as opposed to being something that is perceived on the Midnight Channel to be influenced by the masses.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Aug 1st 2020 at 1:49:51 PM

Yeah, shadows being the actual true self is a thing all of modern persona followed pretty closely, be it 3 FES, Arena, 5, Anime 4 with Shadow Yu... except 4, the game that popularized the notion among gaming circles mildy aware of the series, and I keep finding that profoundly idiotic on 4's part. Along with the fact the structure of the game means the shadow selves aren't all that meaningful in the first place since you barely know the people whose shadows you meet by the time you meet them, it's one of 4's biggest waste of potential.

I think the "but it's what other people project onto them" angle also betrays further the notion of "accepting the truth even if it's painful" because the truth is once again really really tame, since the most awful bits are those other people are projecting onto you and aren't true at all. I chalk it up to one of the most glaring example of the fact p4 fumbled it's execution of it's themes entirely.

Also, I don't think P5 really supports the idea that all evil persons who would meet their shadows would find them exactly as evil as them. Some of the Shadows in p5 are from people who affect a facade of being decent guys (Kamoshida, Madarame, Shido), but the most openly evil persons in real life (Kaneshiro, Okumura) instead are more open about their insecurities in the cognitive wrold (see : most of Kaneshiro's screentime, Okumura's willingness to throw everything away but himself to succeed).

There's also the case of all the mementos targets, who, once you kick their asses, reveal a much more vulnerable, and understanding side to themselves. Reminder that the game says the operative part of a change of heart is supposed to be stealing the treasure, not beating the shadow, so the shadow becoming apologetic is also a part of them that's real, not something you put there.

As for Adachi having a persona but not namatame, the page on this wiki posits that the difference between Adachi and Namatame is that the former actually understood the truth of the TV world unlike the latter, which is why he managed to acquire a Persona but not Namatame. Not that it would have sufficed hadn't been for izanami's intervention.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 1st 2020 at 7:53:37 PM

Whoa I didn't know that detail about the way Shadows act can be seen in their eye colors.

Thats a cool detail that should be more used.