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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#59701: Jul 25th 2020 at 1:53:11 PM

Reminder to use a guide when I eventually play Royal so I can max out all the guides in one route.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59702: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:18:01 PM

Do you use skill slots to cover your Personas' weaknesses or just leave them be?

Apparently I'm crazy for making sure to get Null Dark on 4 of my Personas because they all had Dark weaknesses.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jul 25th 2020 at 4:18:25 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59703: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:18:52 PM

[up][up]Got you covered, I'll remind you that the day you announce you start royale.

[up]I rarely do bother with covering weaknesses. Like sure, if you give me the skill for it, I won't pass it up, but I won't actively seek it if it's colvoluted to get. Especially not instakill weaknesses, because in p4, it's not that common in the first place to meet enemies capable of inflicting it.

So. Rewatched the answer with a Friend who finished p3 and discovered the Answer at the same time. It's still a really strong story, and I'm still glad I can skip the gameplay of it because it looks like a real drag. It's a lot more integral to p3's story than golden's additions are to p4, and in a way, even more relevant than Royale's content is to p5, in that p5's original story was self-contained and royale added another, ultimately disconnected while interesting arc to the story, the answer deals with the obvious fallout the story of P3 didn't adressed : the grief of the main cast over the main character.

I also like that while it does pull up yet another collective unconscious incarnation for a final boss, the story isn't about how it was the mastermind all along behind the events of the base game. The story of the answer is strictly about the personnal grief of the SEES and their journey to accept it and move on, and Erebus is merely a recontextualization of the the story's metaphysics who also serves as the role of final boss of the game, not as an obstacle to overcome, but as the validation of the Answer the sees found to their interrogation. It's really great.

I remember that sometime ago, I had a quick exchange with Very Melon on this thread who argued that the problem with the answer was that only Yukari was the one who couldn't move on from the MC's death, and me arguing that it asn't the case. Rewatching the whole movie, I see why that's a widespread opinion, as Yukari is the one instigating most of the conflict and antagonizing the rest of the cast, so she's the visible cause for most of the drama of the second part of the epilogue, but I think that's missing some of what the text is going for.

(I don't really intend to change anyone's mind about this, I just thought it was a good opportunity to put my thoughts on words in a better way than what I answered back then now that I have a better understanding of the story)

First is, the abyss of time is brought forth by the litteral manifestation of everyone's regrets. Everyone in the SEES couldn't let go of their regrets and wished to see the MC back, that much is said at the end of the battle against the shadow of the MC, and is built up on the various dialogues throughout the dungeons and the various characters reluctantly admitting that they miss the time they had a clear purpose fighting the shadows and other such things. Yukari might be the most vocal about it, but the reason it escalates into a full-on tournament is (a lot of plot contrivances aside, since i won't lie, the game uses a bunch of really convenient shit to make sure things happen this way) that while they may not be as openly antagonistic as Yukari, the rest of the group also doesn't have the resolve to truly move on.

There's also, more simply, the fact that Aigis's way to cope with it was to return to being a machine and discard all of her humanity into her shadow.

Second is a neat detail I noticed during the initial argument of what to do with the time key. When Akihiko opposes the idea of changing the past, the argument he puts forth is an ideological one : it's wrong to desire to change the past and therefore we shouldn't do it.

That's a mentality that makes sense from our perspective, because it's true that we can't erase our mistakes. That's the same kind of reason we have aesops about why immortality sucks : humans are still mortal beings with a finite life expectancy, so we write stories about accepting this fatality. But the thing is, that Yukari points out, that's just entirely dodging the question if the idea you can't change the past is actually wrong. Which they do, in this situation. And if changing the past is possible, then refusing to do so out of some kind of moral justification becomes a lot less solid than it is from our perspective. And in that sense, it's true that neither Akihiko nor Ken are actually properly doing their grief any more than Yukari is, because they initially just want to run away from it.

The second thing I noticed is that Junpei's point during the argument, while similar to the one Akihiko/ ken makes (which probalby contributes to the idea Yukari is the crazy one since the other two sides of the argument seem to overlap a good bit and Mitsuru is mainly in it out of loyalty for her) actually comes from a very different place, a pragmatic one : while he does believe changing the past isn't morally right, he's more concerned with the following question : suppose we do go back to the final battle this day. how do we win harder against Nyx than we already did ? What do we do that could allow the MC to stay alive this time ?

His argument, in substance, isn't that it's wrong to change the past, but that achieving a better outcome than what happened is outside their capabilities. Which is the point the story actually agrees with, and why actually witnessing the events in the past gives so much closure to everyone in the gang.

So, this was the answer. It was a story about people being pulled apart by their differences in handling grief, who ultimately manage to all reach acceptance and punch out Ctuhullu like there's no tomorrow, because by the time he shows up, they've all found The Answer. He's nothing to them, because they've all already overcame their mistakes. The whole battle with it is just a matter of detail. That's what the battle theme - Darkness - is about, hence why the creepy, ominous intro is brutally cut off by the bass and guitar and is never allowed back into the loop of the song, leaving only a back and forth between unrelenting resistance and triumphant blows. And I still think it's one of the most powerful stories persona has told in it's lifetime, even better than most of what 5 did, despite my unnending love for 5.

Edited by Yumil on Jul 25th 2020 at 2:22:52 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
TrueShadow1 Since: Dec, 2012
#59704: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:10:10 PM

Does Golden have anything close to Chihaya's Confidant perks? They're busted and the only reason I can finish all P5 Confidants in first playthrough.

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59705: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:12:04 PM

Nope. you do have the fortune drawing function in the shrine, but drawing fortunes actually does take time and nets anywhere between 1 and 3 relationship points for the slink you select, which means lots and lots of savescumming to achive decent results.

Chihaya was what happened when atlus took the function and buffed it to heaven.

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#59706: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:22:43 PM

[up][up][up] Ah thanks homes.

I think I'll buy it in November for my birthday.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59707: Jul 26th 2020 at 1:45:07 AM

Disaster has been averted. Thanks to my random decision to make two save files in the September day where you can get Arms Master through fusion, I was able to start over from there and max Courage by the start of October. Maxing Naoto's S Link will happen in this run.

Persona 4 Golden is back to being the best game.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jul 26th 2020 at 1:46:21 AM

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#59709: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:34:49 PM

re: The Answer, I went into it expectly the gameplay to be a slog based on what everyone else says about it, but in my experience it goes pretty smoothly. Yeah, there's a lot of dungeon crawling, but because there isn't anything else to break it up (no one gets tired, you don't have to do schoolday stuff, etc) it's easy to fall into a rhythm and just roll through it. That said, you're not really going to miss anything by watching the cutscenes alone, at least for the vast bulk of the story. (The tournament nonsense at the end was fun and worth playing, but given that you have to get through everything else first, I'm not going to knock anybody for skipping it.)

As for everything else you said, I tend to agree on the whole. The Answer isn't about Yukari being the lone holdout while everyone else has moved on, it's about everyone dealing with their grief in their own unproductive way. Yukari wants to save the protagonist, and Mitsuru supports her. Akihiko and Ken want to just ignore how much the situation hurts and move forward without dealing with it. Junpei and Koromaru want everyone to calm down and stop fighting, even though a certain amount of anger is a normal and even healthy part of the grieving process. And Aegis locks down her emotions, trying to stop the pain by not feeling anything, and is successful enough that her repressed feelings spawn a P4-style Shadow.

None of them are dealing with it well, they're just dealing with it different kinds of badly. It's only when they accept the situation — that it's okay to be sad and angry, that it's okay to miss your friend, but it's also okay that he died — that it's not a problem that needs to be fixed, it's not something they're responsible for in any way — that they can make peace with it.

Hm, you know, it strikes me that all the on-screen deaths in P3 are choices. Shinjiro dies to save Ken, Chidori dies to save Junpei, Jin dies to hold back a wave of shadows and let SEES fight Nyx, Takaya dies trying to bring about Nyx's destruction of the world, and of course, the MC dies to seal away Nyx. There's no one who dies randomly or unaware, or anyone whose death represents a failure because they're trying to do something that requires them to survive.

I don't know what to think of that, but it's something I just realized.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59710: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:37:35 PM

It really is impressive P4 did so well, though. This game came out in the middle of 2008...on the PS 2. The 360 had been out since 2006, 2008 was the year MGS 4 was coming out on the PS 3....

Final Fantasy IX's relative lack of success or fame was attributed by some to it coming ut on the dying days of the PS 1 as the PS 2 was right around the corner. Well, the next gen of consoles wasn't around the corner, they were present and in full force when P4 came out and became a smash hit.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#59711: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:42:58 PM

[up][up]

You forgot Yukari's dad, who died trying to prevent Nyx's rebirth, and Mitsuru's father, who died trying to stop his daughter and friends from being sacrificed.

Your point still stands though.

One Strip! One Strip!
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59712: Jul 26th 2020 at 1:45:05 PM

Huh. Now that you mention it, it is a thing, indeed. I guess you could make the argument some of those deaths are still rather pointless in that the situation that leads them to that death could've been avoided but they all find some meaning in their deaths. And it even extends to social links, like how the sun confident who starts out wondering why he has to die for no reason, but then decides not to let him bother him and goes out with a bang with his picture book.

Oh by the way, while I'm talking about this guy, I wanna give credit to p4 that all the little references to p3 were great, ESPECIALLY the fact the picture book about the pink alligator became a runaway hit with the kids, and I'm sorta disappointed p5 toned down so much on those.

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#59713: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:09:55 PM

At least Rise seems to be doing fine. Wonder how Marie's career is going.

Wake me up at your own risk.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#59714: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:30:44 PM

It should still be going well. I mean, it's said she flat out makes the weather she predicts happen, so I can't picture things going bad for her unless a rival god of some sort decides to specifically mess with her.

One Strip! One Strip!
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59715: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:38:08 PM

Cue the Simple Plan.

Edited by Smasher on Jul 26th 2020 at 6:39:58 AM

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59716: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:51:29 PM

Wasn't it Linkin Park who were always associated with angry, emo kids in the 2000s?

But this is very good and I approve.

Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59717: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:10:52 PM

In the first few years, yes. Later on other bands filled that role, My Chemical Romance (which Nanako is wearing a shirt of) among them.

I wonder when the Yos-Gay mod will finish. There's also a shared EXP mod, but it also applies to the party members you don't have yet.

Edited by Smasher on Jul 26th 2020 at 7:14:02 AM

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59718: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:17:32 PM

My GF loved both LP and MCR when she was a teen. Linkin Park was a good band though, they don't deserve to be associated with just petulant teen angst.

As for shared EXP, good idea, but Naoto and the rest of them always saarted way higher level than I was so they clearly don't need it.

And Yos-Gay mod had a long way to go last I looked. "The floor good with you?" indeed.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jul 26th 2020 at 4:18:39 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#59719: Jul 26th 2020 at 8:04:28 PM

I can see Nanako get into an emo phase when she gets older. Having a sad dad, almost dying once, and losing your mom at a very young age can do that.

The legend has returned.
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59721: Jul 26th 2020 at 10:16:02 PM

[up][up] I can see her Big Bro being the only thing that prevents her from going full on emo.

Unless her emo phase is caused by her dad not letting her marry him.

No seriously, i still remember that weird promise.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59722: Jul 27th 2020 at 12:58:52 AM

Tried to take on Kunino-sagiri at Level 53. Second attempt didn't go so badly - I got him down to what looked like about 30% health. Admittedly that was a lot of luck because he kept using attacks on me that I happened to repel at that moment, namely Fire on Cerberus and Electric on Yatsufusa which was a skill I put on him because now he is just immune to 3 out of the 4 main elements. So thanks Namatame, you probably did as much damage to yourself we managed but I was still killed by that justice move of his in the end.

But considering I'm like 12 levels below him, I think I did okay. But it's too fucking late for the grinding session I need to do. Fun fight though, I'll no doubt remember it better in the future than I did originally when I just obliterated him and every other post-Mitsuo boss.

Speaking of Mitsuo, he really did teach me the value of Sukukaja and Sukunda. So much so I've just kinda given up on Rakunda. I gotta keep our Defense and Agility up and the boss' agility down, AND do damage. I don't have time to maintain their defense down, too. Just have Teddie throw on Matarukaja and be happy with that damage.

EDIT:

Nevermind, I did it at Level 53. I really didn't want to impede possibly the most critical and emotionally poignant moment of the games for the sake of grinding if I didn't have to. And I didn't have to. Go me.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jul 27th 2020 at 2:57:11 AM

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#59723: Jul 27th 2020 at 9:26:49 AM

I don't really see Nanako going Emo Teen. I see her more as the quiet girl in the back of class who mostly does her own thing without drawing much attention to herself. Her classmates probably think she's just kinda boring, unless they actually know her, in which case they realize she's just got her shit together to a degree they can't even comprehend and honestly finds them boring because she recognizes that the stuff they obsess over is really just petty high school drama.

...I think I just started writing a fanfic in my head.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59724: Jul 27th 2020 at 9:31:45 AM

It's strange that Persona 4 has more endings than 5. (Four has seven endings while five has five.)

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#59725: Jul 27th 2020 at 10:17:05 AM

Here are the endings if y'all are curious. Here there are spoilers so look at your own risk.

  • Persona 4
    • Bad end where you kill Nametame.
    • Bad end where you fail to look into the case.
    • Bad end where you fail to identify Adachi.
    • Bad end where you defend Adachi's actions.
    • Regular ending.
    • True ending where you speak to Izanami.
    • Golden ending where it's the same as the true ending but you also do Marie's shit.
  • Persona 5
    • Bad end where you sell out your friends to the police.
    • Bad end where you join Yaldabaoth.
    • Regular ending.
    • Bad ending where you accept Maruki's fake reality.
    • True ending where you max out Maruki's Confidant before the end of Sae's dungeon.

The legend has returned.

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