![]()
I'll add that Yosuke doesn't really has some of the most annoying traits of Ryuji of just being LOUD and being partly responsible for compromising the thieves once (although ann was just as guilty and the fandom seems to forget that) and he tries to show his friendship for you more often than Ryuji does outside of his social link, but he seems that his method of socialazing with everyone else is to make jokes at their expense, regardless of whether or not they take it in stride. So I could kinda see the argument that he's a better friend to Yu than Ryuji's a friend to Joker, but Ryuji's a better friend to the rest of the group.
Also, piggybacking a bit on what was said about how no one likes Akechi in the third semester : I don't think it's entirely true. The group maintains the attitude of "we don't have to fight if we have the same enemy, but you're not forgiven" they had in the boat scene, people just read that as far more sympathetically than it was. The end result is that Haru and Futaba just don't talk to him, period, for obvious reasons, while the others have occasionnal mementos convos with him.
But more importantly, Ryuji is actually a lot more friendly to Akechi than he was in the base game. Base game ryuji was always jumping at the opportunity to call him a self-righteous dickhead and just all around voice his displeasure of working with him. This time, he actually is one of the first to voice his approval of the truce and never actually tries to insult him. He even go as far as to not react to the couple of times Akechi calls him an idiot to his face. But that's more of a sign of Ryuji growing as a person than a sign of the group's opinion of him.
Edited by Yumil on Jul 20th 2020 at 8:45:03 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."That's a good point about Ryuji just being loud. Having him scream about "rotten adults" was just pure Narm to me and ruined any chance I had to relate to the character as it felt so incredibly juvenile, like every bad teenager stereotype ever.
Yosuke by comparison is, as I said, chill as fuck. I'm always looking at how stiff the animations are in this game 'cuz its' kinda funny. Yosuke's default animation is "arms folded, slightly leaning back." Funny it might be to watch him make gesture then revert to default position but it does convey his laid back personality. Could be part of why I like him so much.
Anyway, I just beat Rise's dungeon on my first day! Definitely went smoother than my first run. I can't remember how many days it took but I remember having so much trouble with the enemies and then the bosses. I attribute my success to knowing what to expect and also getting Normal money. It really is invaluable to actually have money to spare on the fox and the stuff. I never had any money for anything in my first run.
I won at Level 30 as part of a personal challenge. I feel like Ose (Level 31) is kind of the game being nice to you. He's a Fool Persona so no mater how inept I or anyone else might be, you get guaranteed levels out of a guy who comes with Power Charge and a Medium Phys attack that I think hits 2x IIRC. He was how I won the first time. Well, I wanted to see if I could triumph without the game's charity and I did. It took 1 Soul Food and 3 or 4 Snuff Souls but i did it. Also I think Yosuke died to his last Heat Wave but who cares. The fight is very formulaic, just fuckin' long.
My beautiful Yukiko and her Priestess Personas rule. I got her S Link up to Rank 6 real quick and Ganga was a big help here.
I still need to get my damned Understanding up higher to talk to Saki's brother. I just ignored him first run and gonna try to fix that this time.
Also I'm legit mad I missed out on starting Kanji's S Link. I had to look it up how to actually initiate it. By the time I realized I was neglecting him, it was time for Rise to show up so he wasn't even around. Hopefully I can fix this soon. But yeah,this is just bad game design. I always thought the OG 4 were the big four of the Investigation Team and the game itself seems to agree with me.
Although, honestly, it's more like the OG 5. I've unduly neglected Teddie and his importance to the team. I'm gonna try to re-evaluate my opinion on him this time around. Somebody onanother forum tried to say they preferred Morgana to him for what I consider tobe a frickin' moronic reason. Not "he's annoying' which I've heard since Persona 4 first came out. Not "he's a pervert" which is a more recent but prominent and sorta credible complaint. No, this person's central criticism was "his relationship with Nanako is creepy" like Teddie was a pedophile or something. I don't see how a person can miss the point any harder than that. Teddie is all pervy with the party's girls but his relationship with Nanako was only ever one child to another. Everyone loves Nana-chan but Teddie, due to his also just being born and discovering the world, does have a special and unique kinship with her. But "creepy?" Not in any possible way.
I've mentionned it in passing once already but the part of teddy's character who's not an unsalvageable pervert is really great and would have put it leagues ahead of Morgana for me if it hadn't been offset by his horniness. I found it too much to overlook but I still want to give the game props for that one.
Kanji's social link is really great though, definitely worth following. I think he's one of my favorite party members SL of P4.
(and to mildly defend Ryuji on that one, the expression "rotten adults" is a really stupid one indeed, but everyone in the cast uses it at some point so it makes me want to blame the general writing more than the character for that one)
Edited by Yumil on Jul 20th 2020 at 10:58:23 AM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."I've noticed that a few players think the game's "ROTTEN ADULTS!!!" shtick comes across as rather grating and difficult to relate to as part of the Periphery Demographic, but I think a lot of that is a problem with the texture (i.e tangible elements of the game, specifically in this case the dialogue) than the concept.
The theme of a powerless youth being exploited by a cynical and self-serving older generation is something that has been done very well in multiple novels and films like The Graduate (although in fairness, the protag is technically an adult by the time the story starts, but I feel like it's still applicable). It's more of a problem with the execution than anything else.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Jul 20th 2020 at 5:28:53 AM
My personal opinion on Akechi is that i actually like him as a villain, he actually makes a good foil to several of the thieves, and then psychotic token evil teammate who wants to take responsibility for his evil actions and opposes the Third Semester Antagonist for it.
But like when they are trying to say he's actually a woobie and that he had not control over his actions that's when it gets annoying. Like sure some parts are sympathetic like his mother killing herself out of shame for him being born and that he was genuinely in over his head over his crimes but like he still chose to kill people and even the thieves don't forgive him even if they are sympathetic.
I wonder how the rotten adults thing will age (heh) when the target audience grows older?
Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 20th 2020 at 2:20:35 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"And Adults sucking has been a thing in Persona since the first game, starting with Kandori.
Watch SymphogearI don't know. Mitsuru's pops was pretty cool. He really wanted to undo his grandad's actions.
Dojima is pretty good as well.
And plenty of the Adults in 5 pay back what they owe the thieves and Joker.
To say nothing of Zenkichi / Wolf, and he's a cop, who they have even less reason to trust.
One Strip! One Strip!
Dojima is a base breaking character for a reason and he only gets better near the end of the game.
No, Strikers spoilers please. Not everyone looks at the japanese translations.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 20th 2020 at 2:31:40 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"...I'm sorry. When I see Base-Breaking Character and Persona 4, I assume the word that should be there is YOSUKE.
Since when was Dojima base breaking?
One Strip! One Strip!My issue with "rotten adults" is simply that the adult qualifier doesn't belong there and doesn't serve anything. The problematic group the game talks about are rotten persons in places of power. That they are adults has nothing to do with it. The game even gives us akechi as a case of rotten kid, and gives us a ton of confidents that are perfectly decent human beings AND adults.
Adulthood sucking isn't even all that much of a theme of P5. It just feels like a wording that never should have been a thing in the first place.
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."Actually, scratch what I said in my previous post. I think I know why the phrase "rotten adults" doesn't work for me.
Rotten adults implies the game is about kids righting wrongs by taking down corrupt adults crushing the youngs specifically. That it's a "teenagers vs adults" scenario. And. If you look at the structure of the targets, it kinda works at the start : Kamoshida's victims were kids. So were madarame's. Kaneshiro's mafia scheme targetted students specifically because it was easy to take advantage of them.
The problem is, if you examine this, it stil quickly falls apart. Kamoshida also got the more reasonable coach fired. madarame ruined the lives of adults trying to make it in the art world. Kaneshiro explictly state his intent to go after Sae through makoto.
Then you have all the adults confidents, who are about shitty adults abusing other adults. Also a lot of mementos targets which are about assholes bothering even adults.
And then ultimately, the theme of the main targets abusing the young also disappears from the story : The medjed plan targeted all of japan indiscriminately (and while it was a false flag operation it doesn't become clear until much later), Okumura was abusing a lot more adults than students, Sae's hypothetical abuse would have ruined lives regardless of age, Shido is explicitly abusing everyone, and so on.
So the idea of "rotten adults" falls flat because you lose the impression it's story of teenagers vs adults very quickly, because persona is more of a story of teenagers and adults vs other adults instead.
Edited by Yumil on Jul 20th 2020 at 12:46:14 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."I think the "rotten adults" mindset comes from the idea that it's up to the young generation to fix anything, because adults have either bought into the system and started twisting it to their own benefit, or given up hope of making anything better and become resigned to the status quo. It's something I've noticed in anime from time to time.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
I hear it in real life too. Greta Thunberg, the teenage environmentalist phenomenon, frequently brings it up, for one. She's actually used P5's Arc Words, "You stole our future" more than once; wonder if she's a fan?
I don't think Medjed is a good example. They're really just a background setting for the actual stuff in that arc, and as you say, it was ultimately a false flag. The main victim in that part of the story is Futaba, who indeed suffered at the machinations of the older generation.
Also here's a thing
Actually, yeah, you're right, the actual sutff of the futaba arc DOES tie pretty well into the motif of "rotten adults vs teenagers trying to fix the world". It's only after this one that the main plotline starts losing sight of this.
Also, that's some pretty neat details.
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."Yeah, but Okumura is also responsible of a ton more things than just trying to ruin Haru's life. He's basically bought the murder of several of his (adults) competitors, and his business practices make big bang burger a sanitary threat Adults and kids alike. Okumura isn't an adult trying to exploit the young for profit, he's an asshole trying to exploit everyone to get what he wants.
Edited by Yumil on Jul 20th 2020 at 2:53:06 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

Yeah, their dynamics with their respective main characters are rather different.
Ignoring the issues I have with Yosuke generally, he's usually presented as a follower to Yu's leader. Yu is just generally a better guy than Yosuke, in the sense of being actually cool where Yosuke tries to be cool but largely fails, of being a stronger fighter, of being the acknowledged head of the Investigation Team while Yosuke is not, etc. Most scenes featuring Yosuke are either him following Yu's lead, or Yu as a sort of magnanimous observer, allowing Yosuke to take the lead for a moment without interfering. (A lot of that is because Yosuke is frequently used as a mouthpiece for Yu as a silent protagonist, but in practice it comes off as Yu stepping back to let Yosuke have his fun for a bit.) One of the few times Yosuke directly opposes Yu (the scene in the hospital near the end of the game), Yu slaps him down hard. Even the climax of Yosuke's social link is a "fight" with Yu that basically exists to prove (to Yosuke) that the two of them are "equal".
Meanwhile, Ryuji doesn't really have any hangups like that. He's just Joker's pal. He knows that Joker is better than him at some things, but he's confident that he's good at some things that Joker isn't, so he doesn't have an inferiority complex over it. They're complimentary more than competitive, and Ryuji's character development is more about Ryuji himself than about his relationship with Joker.
Of the two, I would probably say that Ryuji's friendship with Joker is healthier than Yosuke's with Yu, but there's something to be said for the idea that Yosuke's relationship is stronger, after he confronts his issues and overcomes them.
Edited by NativeJovian on Jul 20th 2020 at 2:44:02 PM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.