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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59376: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:25:37 AM

[up]Which is admittedly really believable.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59377: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:29:11 AM

[up][up][up] Man, it's so funny you link to him since I first learned of the guy when somebody linked me to his Mass Effect Trilogy retrospective He thought 2 was the weakest and that pissed me off a lot. I'm sell-=aware enough to recognize my extreme agitation at people insulting two games I love about making fictional friends is probably indicative of something. I perceive attacks on these characters as an attack on me. It's irrational but there it is. I definitely know I've made similar arguments for ME 2 and its squad that I do for the IT.

But I hope you know I appreciate you being patient and cool with talking to me about all this since I realize I get over-emotional. But you've been nothing but cool with me and I wanna thank you for that. Honestly, it makes it more annoying in a way. When people you disagree with are jerks you can just brush 'em off as dumb and...jerks. But you're nice and smart and I wish we could see things the same. But I have enjoyed these discussions since they haven't deteriorated into personal attacks.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jul 14th 2020 at 10:29:24 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#59378: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:30:07 AM

I think the ultimate problem is when p4 came out. At the time that kind of stuff wasn't really something most people got worked up over, but the passing of time and cultural mores have shifted to where enough people feel it's a problem that makes them disengage from the story as presented.

And I mean, it's not universal since a lot of people still love P4. Despite the problems most people still love P3 and P5 as well. It's just a matter of what you personally value and what you feel you can overlook.

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#59379: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:34:46 AM

I've been pretty blunt about not liking P4, and I feel like part of its initial years of glowing reception was a one-two punch of the anime industry breaking into Western mainstream pop culture, as well as Persona as a series being acceptably weird enough to attract an audience that previous Persona and SMT titles weren't able to.

Or maybe it was the anime adaptation.

Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59380: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:39:34 AM

Since I like going to take wiki walks though pages on games I'm playing, I think I'll ask where you guys stand on these. (I mostly want to hear from Yumil, but anyone can answer)

1. Did Saki really hate Yosuke, or was that an exaggeration?

2. Is King Moron's personality an act, or were people only saying good things about him because Never Speak Ill of the Dead?

3. Was Naoto dismissed for her personality, being a teenage girl, or because the cops refused to admit they were wrong?

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#59381: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:42:46 AM

1. Did Saki really hate Yosuke, or was that an exaggeration?

It's vague but I think it's more likely she was just putting up with his advances so as not to get fired. She probably didn't outright hate him, but he was symbolic of a lot of grief she had to put up with.

2. Is King Moron's personality an act, or were people only saying good things about him because Never Speak Ill of the Dead?

The latter, though one NPC mentions that he consoled them at one point.

3. Was Naoto dismissed for her personality, being a teenage girl, or because the cops refused to admit they were wrong?

Naoto's specific story is dealing with gender discrimination in the work force, as well as being a minor. As she puts it she'll be an adult one day, but she's still a woman in a man's world.

vicarious vicarious from NC, USA Since: Feb, 2013
vicarious
#59382: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:43:52 AM

Damn I feel bad I don’t actually remember King Moron’s real name

Pretty sure he’s always been an asshole, but even then the nature of his death is pretty shocking. Plus the etiquette of not speaking ill of the dead and say they deserved to die

Which King Moron didn’t. If being an asshole is guilty of death, then boy do I have news for you

Humanity was a mistake

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#59383: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:59:45 AM

I've been pretty blunt about not liking P4, and I feel like part of its initial years of glowing reception was a one-two punch of the anime industry breaking into Western mainstream pop culture, as well as Persona as a series being acceptably weird enough to attract an audience that previous Persona and SMT titles weren't able to.

Or maybe it was the anime adaptation.

P4 was already popular before the anime adaptation, that's why it got one to begin with.

The glowing reception is rather simple, at the time it came out (I'm talking the original PS 2 release) most of its iffier elements were not really considered to be that big a deal to most people, and in its best moments it manages to communicate this feeling of small-town warmth and companionship that's very appealing to a lot of people, on top of just being an appealing power fantasy and a decent/above average JRPG. You'll notice that feeling of companionship is what most people reference when they talk warmly about P4, not as much the story or themes outside of the Adachi reveal (and Adachi himself was initially popular mostly because people found him funny and memetic in a pathetic way, it wasn't until Golden where he got more fleshed out).

In turn that's part of the reason why there was such a big debate about P3 and P4 before 5 came out, it really just depended on what you prioritized. If you liked the warm "everybody's friends with each other" vibe of P4 then P3 felt very cold and unwelcoming and at the time it wasn't that unusual to see people dismissing it as superficially edgy or whatever.

Now that time has passed I think P3 has been vindicated a little; gameplay wise it's aged even worse because P5 has come out now and made it look ancient, but now it's more common to see people who think it has the best story and execution of its themes, at least among the more hardcore Persona/SMT fandom.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jul 14th 2020 at 2:03:02 PM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59384: Jul 14th 2020 at 11:44:45 AM

i also simply think that the gap between 3 and 4 feels minuscule compared to 5. Like yeah there are some improvements here and there in 4 and some great Qo L, but it's practically nothing compared to the jump 5 made.

1. Did Saki really hate Yosuke, or was that an exaggeration?

2. Is King Moron's personality an act, or were people only saying good things about him because Never Speak Ill of the Dead?

3. Was Naoto dismissed for her personality, being a teenage girl, or because the cops refused to admit they were wrong?

1)

I think that following the rest of the revelations that a) Saki was already dead so it's probably not actually her speaking but Yosuke's insecurities b) the shadows have this whole shtick of exagerrating to provoke their normal self, but that c) the game never really questions the fact Saki hated him and somewhat brings it back during Yosuke's SL, the takeaway probably is that Saki was indeed only nice to Yosuke because he was the son of the manager rather than affection, but she didn't hated him like her voice claims early in the game.

2)King moron's personality definitely isn't an act - the game stops just short of saying he gets off to Rise's idol stuff despite accusing everyone in the class to be horny peverted idiots. BUT just because he was an asshole doesn't mean he had no positive qualities - There are some optionnal scenes like the one rodimus brought up, or one from the wiki that claims that if you actually dare ask him, he can offer solid profesionnal advice. There's also him signing yu against his will for the medical team thing - He's an ass about it, but when you get down to it, he found someone to help with the medical staff of the school when they were overwhelmed, and the girls from the medical staff states a couple time they're glad you're around to help.

Basically, Morooka (king moron's real name) was truly a jerk, but not some kind of cartoon villain who shits on everything For the Evulz.

3) A bit of all three, in a way. Naoto has the problem of being a girl, which is the thing that will follow her her whole life, so that's what her Shadow is about. But she wasn't dismissed by the police because of that, since she seemed to have been pretty competent at hiding it. In this specific case, the police was already barely putting up with her because she has this genius kid thing going on and she was imposed on the local police, but still collaborated with her, but then she started saying the police caught the wrong person and that's where the police refused to listen to her.

@Nikk : you're welcome. I try my best.

Edited by Yumil on Jul 14th 2020 at 8:49:38 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#59385: Jul 14th 2020 at 11:47:11 AM

Yeah, P4's gameplay changes were mostly Qo L stuff. Some of it was rather nice, but compared to P5 drastically overhauling the design of the dungeons and the way the S Links work, it's pretty minor in comparison.

Speaking of which that's another thing that I really like about it: in the previous games you only really got a substantial benefit if you completed the whole s-link by being able to fuse an ultimate persona, otherwise you were just in it for the stories which were mostly not that great. P4 improved this by making it so your party members are more useful if you level up their s-links which is great, but P5 took this much further and made it so that so that you get substantial gameplay benefits from every single Confidant. Not all of them were equally useful but most of them were.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jul 14th 2020 at 2:51:55 PM

I-M-THE-Jetyl-1 the Original Jetyl Since: Oct, 2019
the Original Jetyl
#59386: Jul 14th 2020 at 11:51:20 AM

the conversation has moved past it, but I feel like mentioning again, since it got nuked in the site reset, that a lot of the "comedy" scenes in P 4 G were added to it in Golden.

That doesn't excuse anything, the scenes that were there in the original were just as bad as the added scenes, but there were less of them, thus its easier to ignore the many problems those scenes provide.

I forgot my password, and I want my old Forum handle back!!!
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59387: Jul 14th 2020 at 11:52:47 AM

I'd add "you actually decide skills inherited by your personas" but actually yeah lemme rephrase that, P 3 P's existence plugs most of the gap with p4 so both games ends up feeling very close. I tend to forgot that when talking about p3 we often talk about just vanilla 3.

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#59388: Jul 14th 2020 at 12:14:11 PM

P 3 P has P4's QOL gameplay adjustments, but lacks FES story outside of the Desert of Doors being a Bonus Dungeon and a more VN based system of getting around the areas.

If it gets a remake, a game using the P5 Engine, reworked Social Links to increase the overall effectiveness of both the RPG gameplay and writing overall, while adding both the Fe MC and alternative versions of the Answer based on whether your Journey file is a Male or Female Protag would be pretty cool.

Watch Symphogear
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#59389: Jul 14th 2020 at 12:49:07 PM

If we’re talking friendships where the friends constantly fuck each other over, That 70’s Show has a main group who burn each other near every episode. Only they can give it back to each other far better than the IT.

One episode has all the friends abandoning Eric & Donna in an expensive restaurant forcing the 2 to dine & dash. They then got their revenge by giving them all laxative infused brownies.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#59390: Jul 14th 2020 at 1:03:28 PM

That sounds like something that would happen in P4....to Yosuke and the rest of the guys....probably because of Yosuke.

One Strip! One Strip!
darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#59391: Jul 14th 2020 at 1:06:31 PM

It doesn't help 4 has a strong power of friendship, smalltown closeness feel, but everyone still gives each other shit and can have some pretty terrible things to say to each other.

I can say playing it on PC if 4 has anything going for it above all else, it's the soundtrack. Seriously good song after good song.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#59392: Jul 14th 2020 at 1:27:20 PM

It's the best of the last 3 games' soundtracks IMO. I'll Face Myself and The Almighty slap hard and Heaven by itself is a substantially better dungeon theme than anything in the other games.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jul 14th 2020 at 4:27:48 AM

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#59393: Jul 14th 2020 at 1:40:48 PM

P 5 R's new music is the best in anything Atlus has ever Made, IMO.

Watch Symphogear
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59394: Jul 14th 2020 at 1:42:19 PM

Thank you for answering my questions!

Also, since it got nuked, a reminder that Adachi x Nanako exists, in all its disgusting "glory". So does Rise x Kanji and Rise x Naoto.

Edited by Smasher on Jul 14th 2020 at 8:16:30 AM

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#59395: Jul 14th 2020 at 1:50:56 PM

The only thing I really like about P3 is the final boss.

Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#59397: Jul 14th 2020 at 6:11:06 PM

[up][up][up] How are those last two anywhere near as bad as the first?

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#59398: Jul 14th 2020 at 6:13:54 PM

I feel like there’s a Rule 34, but for ships. Something like “in any given work of fiction, everyone is shipped with everyone. No exceptions.”

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59399: Jul 14th 2020 at 6:16:01 PM

They aren't as bad, but they have little to no basis like Adachi x Nanako.

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018

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