This ACAB for fictional characters is kind of a tiresome trend I'm seeing here and elsewhere. People also bring it up for Chie, pointing out her violent and abusive behavior in P 4 G would make her the absolute worst type of cop.
I just roll my eyes. Chie orMakoto wanting to be cops couldn't possibly be less important to me for evaluating their characters.
Your Bad faith arguments are why I can't take your dismissal of P5 seriously.
This is one of them.
Watch Symphogear... yeah, what the fuck, demongodofchaos ? How is that one specifically a bad faith argument ?
Also, even with all the critcisms I could level at p4 and how the cast is a bunch of unlikeable assholes... Chie's 16, for fuck sake. She has practically ten years to go before entering the police force. Human beings change a A LOT in that timeframe. Saying she wouldn't make a good cop because of how she act at 16 is baffling on several accounts.
Edited by Yumil on Jul 12th 2020 at 4:47:37 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."Well, the game DOES open up on two cops beating up and drugging a 16 years-old so the game doesn't think great of the police itself either.
But yeah, assuming the police is just as bad everywhere in the world as in the US right now and using that against makoto is a leap I'm not in any hurry to make.
(For clarity's sake, this doesn't mean police abuse doesn't exist outside of the US, merely that it's less widespread and broadly speaking, not guilty of as many crimes as grave as the ones brought up in america right now)
Edited by Yumil on Jul 12th 2020 at 5:04:36 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."Also i just thought of something. These games take place in Japan. No wait, that obvious fact isn't my point. I was reflecting on how Chie and Makoto wanting to enter traditionally 'masculine" lines of work like being a police officer is very empowering of them. To be a cop is dangerous and physically demanding, things "girls aren't supposed to do."
Of course the immediate counterargument is "why not be something else that is dangerous and physically demanding?" The obvious alternative would be military. It's something a lot of teens here in the US look to when graduating. I hung out with a lot of Junior ROTC kids back in high school all excited to join the Marines.
But then I remembered these games take place in Japan. So a line of work like being a cop but not a cop in Japan would be...I dunno. I know Japan has the JSDF but I don't think it's the same at all, especially not in terms of cultural appeal wherea kid in high school would aspire to join up.
But my main point is, you can easily see these girls aspiring to such a career type as very liberating of them and admirable.
ACAB and its important to recognize that depicting them positively in media is ultimately harmful as it glamorizes a culture filled with abuse and explicit racism by ignoring those two things for the sake of making up relatable people who are "the good cops"
that being said its not like Makoto is actually a cop yet (nor is Chie), and honestly it might be a good plot point in a Persona 5 Arena or some other spinoff that Chie/Makoto end up in a police force only to find that it's innately corrupt and they get ousted for trying to be the good cop, as happens in real life.
Dojima on the other hand has no excuse and as such is a bastard
"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-MaeStop basing your opinions on what other people think.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Hype Backlash is a thing, I suppose.
I'm glad that Royal gave Makoto her bike back as her Ultimate Persona. It's a really interesting idea beyond just being Stands.
As regards Makoto's quest for police reform, I must say I'm not liking her odds either. Even leaving aside how difficult it is in real life... did you see the size of that battalion that was perfectly blasé about waltzing into another universe to arrest some damn brats? From that I got the impression that like half the Tokyo PD in the Persona-verse aren't just being manipulated by Shido's conspiracy but are actively complicit in it. Up against that, Makoto wouldn't just have to worry about losing her job, but about ending up drowned in a ditch.
Edited by HamburgerTime on Jul 12th 2020 at 1:34:29 PM
Sometimes a work of fiction can live up to the hype. I remember before I ever played any Persona game I was listening to those types. You know the ones. "Persona used to be good before it became dating simulators." I remember I made a thread on here and elsewhere about the JRPG with the best plot: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13671977460A05679100&page=1
This was 2013 and a few posters here and a lot of folks elsewhere said Persona 3 and 4 had the best writing in JRPG history. (man, 2013. A lifetime ago)
That hype did turn me off, if I'm honest. But I'm a fair man. Much like how I went into teh Mass Effect Trilogy highly skeptical of the Mass Effect 2 lovefest yet came away agreeing with the general notion it is a masterpiece for the ages, I came to agree with the general opinion Persona 4 really was that damned good when I finally played it.
But I also adore "the old school" like Persona 2 Innocent Sin. They have many similary appealing qualities when you look passed the superficial differences.
Edited by Nikkolas on Jul 12th 2020 at 11:38:22 AM

I mean, if you want to play the card of "reformist get forced out after a couple years", Makoto isn't a cop by the time the game happens, and, unless you want to refute the fiction presented and argue makoto will become just like the rest on...a basis I don't see, at the very least, then makoto isn't gonna be a cop for long after the game either.
Not that hard to get past that, all in all. Not realizing soon enough your choice of career is setting you up for disappointment doesn't sound like something that automatically makes you unworthy of love to me.
Edited by Yumil on Jul 12th 2020 at 3:03:16 PM
"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."