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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#59201: Jul 5th 2020 at 7:45:07 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Wait he dressed up as who?

[up][up] Huh that is cute.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 5th 2020 at 7:45:24 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#59202: Jul 5th 2020 at 7:45:23 PM

Joker looks more like a Ren than an Akira to me, but I still prefer to call him Joker because I'm a Smash Bros fan.

The legend has returned.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#59203: Jul 5th 2020 at 7:49:52 PM

They could him Akira because it was a Devilman reference.

SMT has always been cheeky about that. Usually with said Akira ending up part demon. Or in P5 case summoning Gnostic Lucifer.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59204: Jul 5th 2020 at 7:50:53 PM

[up][up][up] There was a photo i saw of Mark Hamill with a cosplayer dressed as Yusuke, i'll try to find it.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 5th 2020 at 7:50:54 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59205: Jul 5th 2020 at 8:27:01 PM

[up][up]That's another knock against Akira for Joker's real name. There are many Akiras in SMT. Akira being common in real life Japan also counts.

Edited by Smasher on Jul 5th 2020 at 11:28:56 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#59206: Jul 5th 2020 at 8:49:59 PM

He says as there are two Makotos.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#59207: Jul 5th 2020 at 8:52:00 PM

Not to mention the Akira naming is a reference to a series the franchise has done repeatedly.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59208: Jul 5th 2020 at 8:53:10 PM

I like Akira partly because it's so common. Like he was just a regular guy who had one bad day.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Cosplaythief Since: Jun, 2013
#59209: Jul 5th 2020 at 9:06:36 PM

Isn't Ren just as common too?

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#59210: Jul 5th 2020 at 9:09:28 PM

Yes. Also used for girls too.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59211: Jul 5th 2020 at 9:11:36 PM

Akira seems like the Japanese version of Jack.

Or was that Taro?

Shintaro?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59212: Jul 5th 2020 at 10:43:32 PM

  1. Persona: Naoya x Maki
  2. Persona 2: Tatsuya x Jun
  3. Persona 3: Minato/Hamuko x Aigis
  4. Persona 4: Yu x Naoto, Yosuke x Labyrs
  5. Persona 5: Ren x Makoto/Kasumi

I get it but I personally don't feel polythieves.

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#59213: Jul 5th 2020 at 10:49:08 PM

I remember saying something like "my Joker dated Makoto because she felt most like the heroine of the story" and I'm sticking to that. She wasn't interesting but she felt main characterish enough.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#59214: Jul 5th 2020 at 10:57:56 PM

I genuinely like Makoto's personality and attitude.

Plus i like how she's a foil to Akechi.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#59215: Jul 5th 2020 at 11:27:35 PM

That's Mitsuo who asks Yukiko out at the start of P4, right? I totally forgot about that.

What a strange character. I remember when I first played P4 and was worried I had spoiled the Killer for myself by glancing at the Wiki page for P4's characters and under Antagonists the first entry was Mitsuo And somebody said "nope, he isn't the Killer and also I forgot he even existed in this game."

He is just kinda there as another wrong turn on the path to finding out who was behind everything.

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#59216: Jul 6th 2020 at 6:22:09 AM

Alright, I'm done with p4g. It was a good time, but IMO it's definitely the weakest of all three persona games. Doorstopper of 5 word pages ahead, but TL:DR : Persona 3 and 5 have a good deal of flaws themselves, but I never felt like the problems of the game were so inherently caused by the structure of the game like 4 made me feel.

    Poor execution of the central theme of the game 
So. I've talked about how the entire point of the shadow selves is defeated by the structure of the game already. Welp, turns out Teddie is also a big letdown because ameno-sagiri really isn't subtle about the part he's not really shadow teddie, so the fight just doesn't feel like it's about that. So it actually gets more ironic than I expected : the best application of the Jungian shadow concept p4 is built on is found in P5 with Futaba of all things, because you actually get a sense of what she is in real life and you understand what her shadow is supposed to stand for, which in turn makes her whole character click with much more power.

But if you remember, I said that part of the problem is that the shadow selves aren't actually right, up until their very last lines where they spill out the actual issue they embody.

Yeah, that's a thing that can be applied to the whole game : The game's way of conveying it's "truth behind the truth" motif is to offer an explanation that neatly wraps up everything you've been shown, and then turn around and explain that this was actually a lie and the real truth is this explanation the game hasn't given you any foreshadowing towards until it drops it on your head. That's true of the shadows, that's true of Izanami's existence, pretty much the only important mystery that isn't built that way is the killer's identity and thank fuck for that.

To me, it just feels like the writers weren't competent enough, or maybe merely confident enough, to make a mystery with the real explanation properly foreshadowed without immediately giving it away, so they settled for this instead. Problem is, it just feels cheap, and if your audience isn't invested in your story then your themes will never resonate with them.

    Rise you can be happy I didn't felt like romancing anyone else because this section would have been about how you're a major dissonance for most of the plot. 
Now for something kinda unrelated : we talked a bit about Rise earlier in the thread and someone said they liked that rise liked picking the really outrageous dialogue options. I'm gonna have to ask what exactly you have in mind, because the various times I did it she didn't liked it and just awkwardly moved on. Similarly, her SL doesn't give you points for doing that. So I'm really not seeing it. That, and "being forward with your emotions" stop netting you good points once you don't take rejection for an answer. If Rise wasn't designed to be pretty and had the face of the gonkish fat girl the game likes to make fun of so much, it wouldn't be seen as an interesting character trait at all.

As an aside, people also talked about how Rise has this problem that being horny for Yu is kinda her only personality trait throughout the game. I'm not entirely on that board with the affirmation but it IS her main gimmick, and it kinda makes her the only character where her shadow's initial fakeout is actually completely right on the money about who she really is. Problem is, I'm not sure the game even realizes it because it never comments on that so that makes the whole thing just come off as poorly handled.

    Poor execution of the central theme of the game, social links edition 
Which leads me into another point of contention with the game, which is that for a game that talks about how the truth may be painful but must be faced head-on in order to grow as a person, I find it horribly dissonant that the best way to rank up your social links is to be a sycophantic doormat that won't call them out on their stupider positions. This is a thing all persona games are guilty of to a various extent, where indulging the worst traits of a SL is rewarded by the game, but the difference is that neither P3 and P5 have this theme of "facing the truth" as their core leitmotif.

That and it fits to some extent the overall theme of persona that you make concessions on your opinions for the sake of living with other people up until the time where they'll actually listen what you have to say.

But in p4 I find it especially dissonant because it's also one of the games with the most nonsensical answers to pick. I cringed pretty hard when I saw I had to agree with Eri that the idea that fate is predetermined and that your actions aren't ultimately your fault was a wonderful thing to avoid spending another night drawing blessings with her, and it wasn't the only case like that. I'd rather indulge student council emperor SL from p3 or get smoked kid tower from p5 all day than ever pick three or four options I had to pick in that game.

    Terrible-ass pacing 
I also think the game has a terrible problem of pacing. Someone a couple pages ago said that in p4, the beginning leads to the middle, and then the end goes "wait, I'm here too". I wouldn't even give it that decency, to be frank. The beginning leads to the middle, then the middle splits in two, where the second parts fucks off to parts unknown until it decides to come back, and then the end is over here in a pocket dimension doing it's own thing.

Like. The game is pretty well paced up until the rescue of Rise. And then you get told that the police has a suspect, and an entire month and a half happens without you doing anything about it. Then you catch the suspect, case closed, woohoo, and then… the game waits for another month and a half to remember that the plot isn't supposed to be over and throws Naoto's dungeon your way. And then… Nothing happens for another two weeks, at which point you get a blackmail letter, that… you don't do anything about for a whole month because what could you, AND THEN Nanako's dungeon happens and the game finally gets itself back on track. At least, up until you catch Adachi, at which point in golden you get another almost two months of nothing happening except reminders of Marie's subplot until you're finally allowed to go through hollow forest.

Persona 4 has a good four to five months where just nothing happens. You don't have a target to rescue, you don't have any goal to accomplish, you just wait for the plot to finally catch up to you. Worse, it won't even let those months pass quickly. Like. P5 has a month right after futaba where nothing happens during the summer vacation. But. Actually nothing happens in it. You don't get two school trips that take forever and really make you feel like a month is passing by. P5 doesn't give you any interruptions so you're so busy going from confident to confident the month flies by before you know it. P4 has five months where nothing happens but always sneaks in at least one group event that also feel like they're just all packed together since those months are all grouped together.

    The cast being a bunch of unlikeable assholes ? 
Going back to rise having only one trait of personality, I'm gonna go back to yosuke being an asshole for a moment because it's gonna lead into another of my big problems with the game.

Rodimus essentially summed up Yosuke by saying he gets dumber for every person in the team that joins. At first, I was expecting this to be a case of flanderization that occurs as a cast grows larger. Like. When Ryuji is the only person moving the plot forward at the start of p5, he's not really all that dumb. He makes decent guesses and pieces correctly the information he's given. But as the cast grows larger and the role of saying the smart stuff that moves the plot forward falls to someone else (makoto or futaba, most prominently), Ryuji stops occasionnaly having smart insight and becomes the comedic relief. (There's more to it than, since he still has his own arc and he ends up the most mature person out of the whole gang by the time royale rolls out, but it's more emotional intelligence than deductive intelligence). I thought the same thing was gonna happen to yosuke, but harder.

But… not really. Yosuke just starts being a tremendous asshole pervert somewhere after Kanji joins the team, despite the fact he was a decent friend to Yukiko and Chie up to that point with no particular traces of being an insufferable pervert. And then I noticed that, it's not just Yosuke who suddenly becomes dumber. Everyone in the gang becomes unable to be a human being. Yukiko and Chie become unrealistically abusive and entitled, Kanji cannot spend one conversation without being flustered by naoto, and teddie becomes yosuke 2.

Weirdly enough, the cast actually picks itself back up for the finale of the game… Much like the plot does ?

I had ruled out the possibility that the problem was the writing of the "comedy scenes" being a fumble overall because it stretched out for so long it wasn't possible to really pin the blame on one scene or two for everyone acting so unlikeable. But then it hit me. The moments where everyone acts the most unlikeable and 2008-bottom of the pile-anime matches with the periods where nothing fucking happens in the game. And it's also the part where most of the school trips and other festival events happens. I'm convinced the stupidass "comedy" being ramped up to eleven is the writer's way to make for nothing happening during those segments of plot, which means the plot tries to make up it's terrible-ass pacing by throwing in bad comedy that makes everyone involved look like an asshole.

I have the same issue with Teddie, where when he's written seriously as the shadow who gained consciousness and is terrified of realizing his has no real self and his existence is a mistake who learns that it doesn't matter and that he can forge his own existence and meaning, he's a much more interesting character that morgana ever was, but for at least half of his screentime he's written as a horny fuckboy who is such a nuisance morgana couldn't even hope to be this annoying.

It might be me who's in denial, but I can't bring myself to hate Yosuke because if the game had been better paced I genuinely believe he would have stayed consistent with how he's presented at first as the wholesome bro, just like how everyone else wouldn't have had their dumber moments. So instead I hate the botched pacing of the game even more because the first greatest problem of the game is a direct byproduct of the second greatest problem of the game.

    Contradicting priorities between the plot and the gameplay 
There's also a supreme dissonance that during the month where you have to catch Adachi, the game engulfs the whole town in fog and builds up a very unnerving atmosphere. On one hand, 10/10 for setting the mood, it really works well considering how happy the average track of the game is. On the other hand, you still go on with your life and rank up your social links like it's nothing and it completely undermines the mood. And because Adachi is framed as the Killer, the final battle totes for realsies this time, you're not going to just rush in the tv and fight him the first day you get the chance, you're gonna try to max out all of them, so you have no choice but to drag on the fog for that.

    p 5 did it "better" 
Going from p3 to p5, the whole keywords deal for the palace was new to me and I felt it was a pretty nice idea. Then I played p4 and I discovered that p4 also has the keyword system where you need to investigate the target for a bit before you're allowed to explore the dungeon. My problem with this, is that it feels completely arbitrary. You need to learn that Naoto was obsessed by the case to rescue her. You need to learn that Rise has something on her mind that bothers her. Problem is, not only are both of those informations something you could have said without bothering with the investigation section of asking everyone in town, but they also feel entirely arbitrary as a goal to reach. Why do we need to have such a vague clue to track them in the TV world ? Also, you don't need to bother with that for half of the dungeons because… reasons ? The keywords things of p5 just feel a lot more defined and clear. You need three things, and when you have all three, you get the palace, simple as that.

And while we're on that topic. I've seen people generally say p5 has easily the most style out of all the games. And detractors of the game often brush it off as it doesn't really matter. Cvit even has a 5 hours long rant on p5 on youtube that he called "style over substance". My problem with this is that p4 and p5 together perfectly illustrate why the style adds to the substance rather than detract from it.

P5 may resonate less with you, or may have arcs you deem less interesting, but p5 uses it's style to make every single moment more powerful. That structure of sending the calling card to the boss, revisiting the palace with life will change overriding every other theme, and that genral feel of "okay let's kick asses" make taking down bosses so much more powerful than everything p3 of 4 ever got close to aside from some specific climax bosses. As we've discussed before, persona's appeal is first and foremost emotional. If you don't care about the world and the characters, then everything it may have to say on the philosophical or political side will fall flat to you. And p5 uses it's productions values to get you invested in the game in a way neither 3 nor 4 can hope to match.

Plot considerations aside, going back to p4 after p5 made me realize p5 is just a much more fun game all around. The random corridors of the dungeons really detract from the mood they're trying to set with the entrance setpieces and the music when compared to the palaces of p5. The secondary quests don't feel like a list of busywork that feel so divorced from the rest of the gameplay that I put up with because I have completionnist tendancies, they feel like fun things to do that intersect well with the rest of the gameplay. Confidents just feel a lot more memorable because you do more than be the emotional living crutch of fifteen different persons, they help you to fight with benefits that are a lot more direct than arcana bonus EXP, and in return you get to help them during their darkest moment and help them turn their life around. And in turn, the only person who overcomes his own problems on his own without any direct help (Sun confident, Tora) stands out from the others rather than be drowned out in the rest.

Shadow negotiations and shared EXP among the group also patches up a lot of the grinding problems p3 and p4 are guilty of. A common occurrence of me playing p3 and p4 was that I wanted to complete the compendium and do all fusions once I was done completing a segment of tartarus, so I'd farm money on the monsters to have enough for the fusions. But because there's no real way to farm for money specifically, I'd end up gaining levels while doing that, unlocking more fusions and meaning I needed MORE money for the fusions. Before you know it, you're level 25 before the shadow yukiko boss fight. The same thing happened in golden and I'm thankful for the difficulty setting that just lets you earn so much more gold for each fight because I'd have been level 99 by the time I hit naoto's dungeon from all the farm.

Enemies actually being personas also make battles so much more intuitive than remembering what are the weaknesses of this specific palette swap of enemy model.

Moving on to the final bosses and the argument I had with Nikk a couple days ago.

    the final boss and the "true ending" 
I can agree with the idea that Izanami is just poorly executed, but I do't think the problem is because persona 4 is about catching the culprit only. When you take down Adachi and that Eldritch God that claims to be behind the fog come out, you don't think "the game is over, I don't care". At least I certainly didn't. You just fight him and it fits with the buildup from the last month of the fog engulfing the city. In that sense, Ameno Sagiri isn't too different from Yaldabaoth in the sense that while the plot didn't hint a lot at it's existence, the plot immediately brings him to the stage when you bring down the culprit/shido so the adrenaline from the climax doesn't have the time to go back down. Izanami's problem is rooted in what I described earlier that p4 thinks that the truth behind the truth must not be foreshadowed. Ameno sagiri could be the final boss, the Yaldabaoth of this game, and it would work out fine. He could have given his persona to Yu, his dialogue hints at it, so there's not really a plot point that really is left unanswered. But no. The game has to reveal there was an eldritch abomination behind the eldritch abomination, and one that received very little buildup throughout the game, during the god damn epilogue sequence. It's just not all that satisfying.

Izanami is also a pretty disappointing final boss, compared to nyx and Yaldabaoth. Like, her first phase reveals the entire battle was just for shit and gigs, so you reveal her phase 2… and you proceed to keep fighting exactly like before, except the music just got way, way worse, and when you empty her lifebar… it still doesn't do jack shit to her despite the fact you're supposed to be pummeling away her true form. Instead, she starts one-shotting your teammates one by one, and the music that was just boring so far despite the fact this should have been your second wind moment starts swelling up and become reach out to the truth despite the fact your friends are dying one by one in front of you. It's just completely dissonant and a lot less satisfying than the pseudo-boss fight like Yaldabaoth phase 2 or nyx phase 2. I'm glad the anime exists and just made it much more cohesive and satisfying by having the phase 2 be one-shotted by Izanagi no okami and have the bit about the thousand curses happen in phase 1.

And while I'm speaking of Nikk and things we talked about : What segment of the Devil SL are you talking about ? because the end of her confident doesn't even have a fade to black or anything, she just leaves while you're there, so I'm gonna have a very hard time assuming anything sexual happened there, so I assume you're talking about something else.

SO. Those were my thoughts on p4. I enjoyed the game, I had a good time for the hundred hours it took me to finish it, but unlike p3 where I still believe it does some specific things better than 5 (and now 4) does despite 5 being the overall better game to me, I don't think there is a single thing p4 does where it's not outdone by at least one of them in that department. If p3 is a solid 8/10, maybe a 9/10, and p5r is the closest from a 10/10 I've played as far as I'm concerned, p4 is a 7 bordering on being an 8 but held back by too many things.

Edited by Yumil on Jul 6th 2020 at 3:42:52 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#59217: Jul 6th 2020 at 6:36:10 AM

@ Yumil. I agree with you.

but I feel that after playing P 5 R, which is easily the best re-release Atlus has ever done, It elevates an already great game to arguably one of my all time favorite games ever, JRPG or otherwise.

P 5 R's third semester is is in many ways the culmination of the best traits of the Katsura Hoshino era of the series and distills the themes from all the games (Even in p1 and p2) into one final arc.

Accepting Death from 3 with "Kasumi"/ Sumire coming to terms with the death of her sister, Facing the truth from P4 with The PT rejecting the false reality of Maruki's creation and Maruki running from the fact that Rumi, after using his Actualization powers on her, would never remember him as she did before again, and his wish to make people happy is him running away from his problems. And P5's anti-authority and pro freedom with The PT stopping Maruki, because for as benevolent he is, he's still an adult trying to force his ideals on everyone, no matter how sincere they are, as it leads to stagnation like with Yaldabaoth's prison of regression.

The third semester has it all, and it feels like a swan song for the series as it is now.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Jul 6th 2020 at 9:44:31 AM

Watch Symphogear
Cosplaythief Since: Jun, 2013
#59218: Jul 7th 2020 at 6:18:12 PM

[up][up]I don't know, I still think P4 did outings better than P5 even if its humor is not that great at times. I found Hawaii pretty boring and I think if it was the P4 gang you'd probably have more to do.

But you nailed it with characters getting dumber as more party members join. P5 example is in the casino, while I'm sure Akechi using the extra card to get all the chips is really something he would come up, I really doubt Makoto or Futaba wouldn't come up with the idea of using the cheating systems in dice and slots to make us win. Yet the game kept making it seem like only Akechi would think to do that. It was weird.

Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#59219: Jul 7th 2020 at 6:30:15 PM

I'll admit that I would've liked more outings in P5 like what P4 does, but then again, there were apparently complaints (some of which I share) that P4 had scewy pacing at places.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#59220: Jul 7th 2020 at 6:33:02 PM

I think the life sim aspect of Persona 3-5 imposes some restrictions on pacing by itself, namely that it tends to make the game longer since you often have periods where you just have to wait to be able to progress in the main story, and to make use of those efficiently you usually wanna do s-links or stat building instead of just going to sleep right away to get through it quicker.

Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59221: Jul 7th 2020 at 6:44:10 PM

Wow, a lot of stuff was deleted.

Anyway, I learned that Noato was originally going to be male and human Teddie was originally female. The justification being that Teddie would be male in the TV World but female in the real world. The decision to change human Teddie to male was to make the Inaba Scoobies a Gender-Equal Ensemble, as Naoto had already had been changed at that point.

Edited by Smasher on Jul 7th 2020 at 9:45:39 AM

I-M-THE-Jetyl-1 the Original Jetyl Since: Oct, 2019
the Original Jetyl
#59222: Jul 7th 2020 at 6:54:36 PM

[up]yes, lots got cutnote . IIRC, the killer was even originally supposed to be dojima, but they changed it becuase that was way too dark.

[up][up] I think Persona 3 handles the pacing issue the best, given the thing holding up the plot, and thus allowing the every day life-sim stuff to happen, is the monthly occurrences of the full moon, which isn't something anyone can control.

in 4 it creates the weird pacing in dungeons in how, saving them day one puts them out of commission for like 2 weeks, while saving them the last day, they are up and ready to help out the next day. and then the as for mentioned 4-5 months where they sit on their thumbs.

I forgot my password, and I want my old Forum handle back!!!
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#59223: Jul 7th 2020 at 6:59:22 PM

i maintain that the killer being Dojima would have been an absolute incredible and eternally memorable plot twist, and would have been an incredible fit to accepting unwelcome truths.

I get why they didn't keep it, but it would have been incredible and actually forced the player to face an unwelcome truth along with their party.

as for teddie... i'm ultimately glad that teddie was male in both spaces. i have a creeping suspicion given Persona 4's track record (and Persona 3 and Catherine and... really just ATLUS as a whole) it would have ultimately been filled with outright transphobia that would have made the game unbearable to play, for me

Edited by EpicBleye on Jul 7th 2020 at 10:05:52 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
deludedmusings Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#59224: Jul 7th 2020 at 7:03:02 PM

Yeeeah, honestly I can see that happening.

Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#59225: Jul 7th 2020 at 7:06:12 PM

[up][up][up] Actually, no, the original killer wasn't going to be Dojima; people just started that as a rumor and eventually believed it because he's such an asshole. We have no idea who the original killer was going to be other than "not Adachi"

Edited by Smasher on Jul 7th 2020 at 10:06:42 AM


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