Persona series

Heck Gas Station kun not only spawns during rain, but stays when the fog brocmes permanent to show theres a connection.

Its how I figured out there was more to it and even wrote down he was suspicious.

@Yumil

Your claim about Shido and the conspiracy being introduced very late sounds wrong to me. I can't recall how many palaces there were in P5 but 5 sounds like it mus be near the end and Shido and everything to do with him is introduced way earlier than that.

Like, he wasn't just the guy who ruined the protag's life. He ruined Futaba's life, Sojiro's life, Futaba's mother's life. Akechi's life, too. Sure we don't learn he was responsible for all of this until near the end but all these subplots were introduced earlier and left open to be resolved. And everything comes together with Shido as the core of everything bad that happened to all these characters. That is why you gain so much catharsis from smacking him down, he was built up to be smacked down.

Also his dungeon had the best theme and he himself had a good VA. But anyway....

But yeah, the conspiracy is front and center in P5's plot. Half the plot is the SIU Director vomiting exposition about the same thing over and over again, about how the Evil Plan is succeeding evilly.

His minions also include ruining Ryujis, Ann, Mishima, Shiho, and everyone else in the vicinity of Shujin and a teen too by enabling Kamoshida.

I don't know if it counts as well since it occurs during the game's plotline as well as before the plot begins, but Shido and his conspiracy probably had a hand in ruining Haru's life given the bad things that Kunikazu Okumura did to fuel his own political ambitions which would have competed with Shido.

Okumura only got as far as he did because Shido pimped Akechi out to Okumura to get rid of political rivals.

Fifth palace is okumura's, which is the part where the phantom thieves as a group become threatened by the conspiracy. Note that I didn't said the conspiracy was introduced at this point, I said it's at the point where the phantom thieves are confronted to it. (Actually, one of my sentences could be read that way. Sorry, that one was misleading.)

Yes, The SIU director has his scenes and all, but you don't go after Okumura because he's part of the conspiracy. You go after him to help Haru and because he appears to be behind the mental shutdown case. You don't go after futaba because Shido ruined her life. You go after her because she needs help and she's your only hope against medjed. You don't go against kaneshiro because he's part of the conspiracy. Nor Madarame. Nor Kamoshida.

If the only measure of when the game should stop is how much of an antagonist feels good to take down, the game could stop at Kamoshida. But you'll leave all the character arcs unresolved, you'll leave out much of the game's thematics and all those things that contribute to make the game great.

Sae's the first target you come after where there is an ulterior motive of "we need her help to uncover the conspiracy", and even then it's a plot point that only becomes clear after clearing her palace. The conspiracy doesn't drive the plot until that point, it just sneaks in the back of the bus until then.

Shido isn't revealed to be behind the conspiracy until his own palace, the seventh. you are correct that the game connects him to a lot of subplots to make him important to take down, but that statement has nothing to do with your thesis that the game should stop at shido, because the journey of the characters isn't driven by the idea to stop "One person, Uno" to reuse your words. Or even this specific conspiration.

The phantom thieves weren't founded specifically to catch the guy who ruined Joker's life. Or Futaba's liferuiner. Or Akechi's. Or sojiro's. They were founded to stop the people you couldn't stop with traditionnal means. Individual members may have reasons to go after him, but the whole point of the story is also that they all outgrow their desire for personnal revenge in favor of helping others.

Taking down shido isn't going to make all the other awful people go away. For 80% of the journey, they're never after one man specifically. You could stop after shido, but the ending would fundamentally be a And the Adventure Continues after that, because taking him down doesn't remove the purpose of the thieves the way taking down the killer remove the IT's purpose.

You're right that we, the player, are introduced to the conspiracy much earlier, but the conspiracy is a spearate entity from shido, as exemplified by the fact the conspiracy outlives shido and remains an antagonist in P 5 S (and even in P5 itself after shido's defeat), because taking down the leader doesn't make it go away in one swoop.

Hence my point about how the societal issues the thieves are confrotned to are a much more important driving thread for the game's story than Shido, because The reveal that shido was behind it all doesn't come in until after the two thirds of the game, and you have to have SOME reason to keep playing up until there. And that thread doesn't disappear when shido enters the story.

Edited by Yumil on Jun 29th 2020 at 3:53:06 PM

Wait, seven palaces? Kamoshida, Art Guy, Mob Guy, Futaba, Haru's dad and Shido. Who am I forgetting?

But fair enough. I do remember faceless goons were like "Shido is done with but we can still move forward" or something at the end....

Still not sure why Shido needed a high school prinripal to help him take over a country, though.

And I agree the Phantom Thieves don't just exist to hunt Shido the way the IT existed to hunt the Killer. But I was talking about the structure of the narrative and how the story was written to focus all our, the player's, enmity on Shido. P4 and 5 present these human figures of evil that we chase after for hours and hours and then at the end a supernatural evil is revealed to be the puppet master. And I feel nothing for these cups and...whatever Izanami was since I can't even remember anything about that boss fight.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jun 29th 2020 at 6:54:39 AM

you're forgetting Sae right before Shido.

I'll give you that I can see why p4 is worse about it than 5 for the godlike antagonist from nowhere, and that 4's structure of "but the real truth was actually somethign completely different" worsens it, but 5 makes it work because despite not being human itself, yaldabaoth is born from human desires and embodies a very real societal issue : the masses's apathy and refusal to take action for their long-term wellbeing because they don't want to think about it so handing the power to a godlike messiah is so much more convenient.

Yaldabaoth being born from the human unconscious isn't just persona lore, it's the thing that make him fits thematically among the other targets because he too is a flaw of society as we know it. He's not JUST a cup, he's everyone who watched the thieves be wronged and didn't lift a finger to help because it was more convenient for them. Well, a part of everyone, but same difference.

And then there's royal antagonist but I think you'd find this one fairly decently foreshadowed and since he's human you'd have less problems with it. (although I think you'd still prefer shido)

4 comparately has the issue that izanami's whole shtick of mindless happiness isn't really brough to the table before the culprit boss fight. THE TRUTH is brought up early on, but it means so much and so little it doesn't particularly feels like a culmination of that.

Edited by Yumil on Jun 29th 2020 at 4:04:26 PM

No mention of Darkness? SHAME.

nah, I mentionned it earlier, and I will die on the hill that it's one of the best, and my personnal favorite, because of how well it describes the battle and the whole message of the answer.

I will give Izanami this, that part in her boss theme where Reach Into The Truth starts playing after minutes of tension is good as hell.

Let me ask for an opinion:

Do you think the police were letting Kaneshiro get away with his crimes because he was funding Shido, or was Kaneshiro really that elusive?

I could go either way with this one.

I think it's more of a general "oh shit, he's a yakuza, let's not deal with his bullshit right now" type of deal personally.

Yakuza are pretty commonplace.

Kaneshiro was NOT yakuza, he was just a general organized crime boss. Even in the Japanese version its just 'Mafia'.

Iwai however has actual Yakuza connections.

Playing catch-up.

Take Over > Last Surprise > A Lone Prayer > Mass Destruction > Reach Out To The Truth > Wiping All Out > Persona 2 Theme > Time To Make History.

Thankfully, I can just swap out Time To Make History on PC.

Sae mentions that the police were trying to get Kaneshiro for some time IIRC

Wasn't she kind of bitter about the phantom thieves taking him down? Or am I misremembering.

Sire they were. And the big fat checks they got didnt distract them whenever he walked by.

Yeah, Sae was extra bitter about the kaneshiro case because she had been working on it for quite some time and was betting a promotion on it.

Aaah yes, foreshadowing for the deadly sin of envy.

I'd be very interested in hearing Yumil's and others' take on the P4 Devil Arcana. I had some people on Reddit adamantly refuse to accept there was anything asexual about it and the "fade to black" could mean anything but the tone and her dialogue makes it readily apparent what was going on there if you give in to her advances.

Also whydoes everyone hate Kenji in P3? I barely remember he exists. I thought he was just one of many inoffensive but otherwise generic and forgettable S Links. Only S Links I remember are party members, Chihiro and Tanaka. Oh and of course flirting with your teacher in an MMO.

Those dating adult women S Links in P5 definitely didn't just come out of left field.

Edited by Nikkolas on Jun 30th 2020 at 3:11:34 AM

I'm with nikk on that one. Kenji's not winning good writing awards anytime soon but he's just a dumb kid with a dumb dream that needs to get a reality check, and once he takes it he moves on pretty well from it. It's not great but he's always portrayed as completely out of reality for thinking he has a chance with the teacher, so I don't find it as terrible as some seem to.

As for the devil confident, gonna have to give me some time, she's unlocked now, I'm around rank 4 so far.

Edited by Yumil on Jun 30th 2020 at 12:43:42 PM

P3 social links are kind of a blur to me but I do remember being just annoyed with the guy. The fact that I can't forget him when I can't remember the star or temperance arcana of P3 also annoys me.

TLDR: I don't remember but my lingering memory reminds me to hate him from time to time.

I do think Junpei was the better magician of the two.

P3 Moon is easily far worse then Kenji, TBH, especially his final rank in which he reveals just how much of an asshole he really is.