TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Persona series

Go To

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#58851: Jun 28th 2020 at 3:35:28 PM

I also had a fun theory going through my head.

wild mass guess Similar to Yamaoka/ Alfred, Cendrillon is actually Kasumi as Sumire's Persona. This is made Evident by her Silhouette appearing in place of Cendrillon during Sumire's True awakening sequence in the second visit to Maruki's palace.wild mass guess

Watch Symphogear
I-M-THE-Jetyl-1 the Original Jetyl Since: Oct, 2019
the Original Jetyl
#58852: Jun 28th 2020 at 3:40:00 PM

okay, so I missed the immediate discussion on applying reading onto Persona 4, but I do want to add my two cents to it.

Often when this conversation pops up for applying narrative theories to Persona 4, namely Queer Theory, there is also someone coming in bring up how authorial intent was not meant to be read that way, how Kanji is a just a straight dude who likes knitting, or how naoto is just a cis woman frustrated by japanese sexism in the workforce, and etc etc, It always feels likes its used to shut down conversation, rather than adding to it at all.

I notice that too in the YMMV page for Persona 4, where the way the sections on it relating to queer reading of it, they feel written as if that reading is somehow "wrong" despite simply being another way to interpret the work because it goes against the authors intent.

And stuff like that bugs me, Because for myself at least, and probably other people too who enjoying examining persona, and persona 4 in particular, in a queer lens, its not just because Persona 4 is chalked full of Clear queer subtext (though it is), but also because I find that personally more interesting and more resonant to myself and who I am, than what the author intended.

As pointed out before by many people, following the authors intent, Persona 4 ends up very limp-wrist-ed in its theme of "searching for the truth" and "being yourself" because "The Truth" does not conform to what any individual society may want, and the same goes for ones "True Self" as well. But in Persona 4, it always, always conveniently does.

And as touched on earlier, the appeal of Persona is an emotional one, and I can acknowledge that in myself. Persona 4 is both a work that touched me during my formative years, and as such holds a special place in my heart, but its also a work that deeply frustrates me, as I can see what I feel is a much better and more thematically consistent version of itself in the material, but the author clearly disagrees, having the updated re-release not address and improve the issues inherent in the original work to make it better, but double down on its issues, try to crush any applicability the work created to better match their intended vision, and just adding a bunch of additional anime nonsense on top.

I forgot my password, and I want my old Forum handle back!!!
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58853: Jun 28th 2020 at 3:43:58 PM

Naoto is confusing because she, like Kanji, did things that were considered inappropriate for her sex. Namely dressing like boys and her loves of boy things like action cartoons and the like.

Yet her problem is...sexism in the workplace? When she's always been comfortable doing boy things even as a kid, and shems uncomfortable doing things girls like and her SL is all about forcing her to do it, until she dresses more like a woman because she needed to "get over" her like of boy stuff. Thus her Epilogue look.

And her shadow takes after her as a child, but also all the things she loves as a child, which is things boys like.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 28th 2020 at 3:45:08 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#58854: Jun 28th 2020 at 3:44:55 PM

I know this probably wasn't directly targeted towards me specifically, but the reason I mentioned authorial intent to begin with was mostly just contextualize the failure of the game to properly handle the social issues in question, not really to discourage anyone from talking about the issue from a more queer-focused POV.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jun 28th 2020 at 7:06:04 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#58855: Jun 28th 2020 at 3:45:50 PM

[up][up] Yeah that is weird.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58856: Jun 28th 2020 at 3:49:17 PM

Even Kagatsuchi who usually insults and manipulates the issues of h th e characters never brings up sexist workplace. Instead when she doesn't fall for his ruse he...insults her by saying she wants to be a boy. And thanks to Sho being a stalker Kagatsuchi knows what his moms and dads issues are.

And Arena gets all the others issues on point,.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 28th 2020 at 3:51:05 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
I-M-THE-Jetyl-1 the Original Jetyl Since: Oct, 2019
the Original Jetyl
#58857: Jun 28th 2020 at 3:58:58 PM

[up][up][up] yeah, I wasn't trying to call out anyone in particular, more expressing a repeated frustration whenever the discourse surrounding Queer readings of Persona and Persona 4 in particular pop up.

I forgot my password, and I want my old Forum handle back!!!
MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#58858: Jun 28th 2020 at 4:02:49 PM

@ Omega: keep in mind that part of Naoto's issue is also age discrimination and her frustration with being treated like a kid. I think her Shadow actually ends up spending more of her monologue talking about that than gender issues.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#58859: Jun 28th 2020 at 4:17:19 PM

"Junpei didn't had any development outside of chidori" is a neat dress-up of saying "this character doesn't receive development if you ignore their arc where they get develomment". While we're at it, Ken has no development outside of killing Shinjiro, Akihiko has no development outside of mourning the latter, Yukari and mitsuru receive no development outside of their father's deaths. Except it doesn't work that way.

It's also not true since junpei also has the whole thing about starting out refusing to be led by you and progressing toward being the bro, which can hardly be overstated considering he starts out rushing on his own at the first full moon boss, but hey.


anyway, back to p4. I beat shadow Kanji. And I think I'm starting to see the problem here.

Persona 4 is the one of modern persona that takes the most out of jungian psychology of confronting the part of yourself you cannot admit, and of having no choice but to accept to keep living on. On paper, it sounds like a great way to have character examination in-universe and a great way to provide growth for characters.

The problem with that theory is that the execution botches the entire concept by doing everything backwards.

Because the in-universe mechanics dictate that you must first accept your shadow to gain a persona, this means your teammates must face their shadows before integrating the group. but because persona is at the core, balanced around a 4-people party, the game also needs to give you teammates quick. And because you can't introduce the whole cast immediately during the prologue, later teammates are also just not part of the plot until they become relevant.

Which leads us to a structure where we're barely introduced to a character yet we already have to face their shadow. So what could be an emotionnal punch to see our friend's darkest side is entirely lost since we face the insecurities of people that are, for all intents and purposes, complete strangers to us. Instead, it's the starting point of those character's arcs, which removes all of the oomph of using the shadow selves in the first place.

I kinda expect Teddie's shadow to be the only one to actually have some emotionnal weight for the player since the game actually introduces teddy early on and takes the time to set up his insecurities about what he actually is and the implicit denial of the most obvious explanation that he's a shadow beofre actually showing it.

And then we get to another problem, which is that the shadow selves aren't the whole truth. In fact, most of what they initially say is bullshit and is a distraction from the real problems. Yukiko isn't actually horny for whoever fits the archetype of the handsome prince, she just hates the family expectations that are pressed upon her. But all of her dungeon is about a castle and knights in armor, and all of the banter throughout the dungeon never hints at the actual truth, only to the fake-out. It's only in the final confrontation with Yukiko that the shadow actually starts getting to the real point, but because we know nothing about Yukiko at this point, we can't notice it until the game turns around and explains it itself, because we have no choice but to take the shadow at face value since we know barely anything about her.

Once you've noticed that pattern, you can apply it to other shadows and start to see what it's actually about. Kanji's dungeon is in the same mold. It starts off with all of the camp gay you can find, but during the boss fight you can note it entirely becomes about being accepted for who he is more than being attracted to boys. And then when Kanji wakes up, he clarifies that indeed the problem is with toxic masculinity.

There's only two more problems with that, the first being that he's the second dungeon in the game so catching on to the pattern at this point is unlikely, and that even taking that into account, the shadow is still so off-base, and we're lacking so much context about kanji, that the game needs kanji to explain himself the actual issues with himself. It's pretty telling that the others pretty much accepts their shadows without saying a word, because you have to accept it, but kanji gets to sneak in a refutation of what his shadow stands for before accepting it by saying it's actually about something different. I like that moment in a vacuum, but it demonstrates that they had to bend extra hard to make the dungeon look like it was about gay issues.

And that makes the whole execution feel a lot less great than it should, because if the dungeon themes are only metaphorically related to the actual issues, it means they chose the gay theming when they could just as well have went with a different theming. And that makes the complaints about "queerbaiting" a lot more valid than I'd think at first.

I didn't realized it when I watch that segment of the anime, but because of that, Shadow Yu is essentially the best shadow, because it's the one who's actually right and doesn't hide his actual insecurities behind something ultimately very different, and because it comes into play at a point where you have enough understanding of Yu to know that it is right on the money.


The thread went places while I was writing that one so here's my two cents : my issue with the readings of persona 4 that go against authorial intent is that they feel inherently like setting one's self up for disappointement.

It's great that the alternate interpretation resonates more to you, you do you, but then people seem to always expect supplementary material to give more fuel for that alternative interpretation.

(I dunno if it's a more general thing, but it seem to be a running thing with persona 4 in particular that the work needs more fuel for that interpretation in some way or an other. I presume that it's a consequence of queer-positive works still being rare.)

And yeah, sure, it makes sense for you since you like that interpretation more, but since this is still the same author writing, the only way you'll get that is if the author fumbles again in the exact same way. So when the author tries to clarify what they said, it becomes an attack on your read of the work. In this situation, the only winning move I can see is to move on, because not doing that leads only to more frustration that persona 4 didn't go this way. And because it goes against authorial intent, it more or less never could have gone that way.

Then again, I hardly have a stake in the matter myself so maybe I just get this completely wrong. In which case I apologize if that hurt anyone.

Edited by Yumil on Jul 6th 2020 at 3:33:56 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58860: Jun 28th 2020 at 4:22:54 PM

Honestly it would have made more coherent sense that the Shadows had Red Eyes like the games original trailer implied, because if the shadows had gone rogue, they can act in ways that are entirely different from what their users issues were. As Red Eyes always signify that.

This is what the P2 Shadows did well. Theyve gone rogue and are working wihh A doomsday cult, and their loyalty to said cult helps hide the issue that truly defines them until you confront them in the Shrines. To the point their ultimate personas will emerge and even confront their other self alongside their user.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 28th 2020 at 4:24:54 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#58861: Jun 28th 2020 at 5:23:01 PM

[up][up] I've actually been thinking about how the Shadows aren't meant to be the while truth for a while now, And I wonder if it was intended that way. I lean towards yes party because of how it ties into the broader themes of not only looking beyond the surface level but also looking beyond what may seem to be the hidden truth, as seen with how the party was initially convinced that Namatame was the perpetrator (well, he technically was, but there is more to it). There is also the fact that the team explicitly admits to their darker and nastier traits while rejecting the view that that is all there is to it. The synthesis to the thesis and antithesis basically.

And on the topic of "death of the author" and the broader discussion about intentionality and interpretation, I think some people take the theory to mean that you can work backwards and use interpretation to gleam intent when the whole idea is to divorce intent from one's own interpretation. That is why there is a difference between saying that ATLUS failed in their LGBT rep versus saying how ATLUS can be unintentionally queerphobic with how the text presents the themes and characters.

Edited by Kakuzan on Jun 28th 2020 at 8:25:00 AM

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#58862: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:02:36 PM

Is there a particular reason why Makoto is the most common straight ship for the P5 Protagonist?

Also, I feel like mentioning that I ship Butters/Shiho. (Butters is Mishima, thanks to Nico B I always think of Mishima as Butters)

Edited by Smasher on Jun 28th 2020 at 9:05:13 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58863: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:07:59 PM

...Really? I figured you of all people would know that already?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58864: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:09:11 PM

Off the top of my head;

1) She has a Mad Max aesthetic

2) People pair Ann with Ryuji, not everyone is comfortable dating Futaba, and Haru comes way too late in the game. Makoto gets paired by default.

Those are the "practical" reasons beyond the usual subjective shippery stuff. The crazy thing about Makoto is that usually the "fan-preferred" ship dies down over time; like what happened with Rise. But nope, three years in and an introduction of a new potential romanceable party member, and Makoto still is among the most popular options. Go figure.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jun 28th 2020 at 9:10:50 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#58865: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:09:29 PM

What is the most popular straight pairing of 3 & 4?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#58866: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:10:11 PM

That post explains it better than I could, but I agree so hard. It's a shame the Shadow concept is explored once per character, and never again. 4 treats its psychology as kind of a one and done thing when it comes to confronting a character's deepest traumatic issues. Yet this isn't the end of a satisfying character arc to build this up and validate them, it's one of the first things you see a character do. So it's like they get a moment of deep, interesting discussion, then it's effectively dropped.

It would've been great to see their Personas regressing into Shadows or something, just to show that like real world mental health, you can regress or devolve into repetitive patterns of behavior, and more than once at that.

It'd have our cast reaffirm their development and progress, but we get one Shadow effectively at the start of an arc, and it's done.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58867: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:12:48 PM

[up][up] 3, it's either Aigis or Mitsuru.

4, it used to be something of a tie between Rise and Naoto, but nowadays people just pair all four party members cuz Chad Narukami can have it that way. You can blame the Anime for that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#58868: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:14:09 PM

[up][up][up] For 3, I think it's Fe MC/Shinjiro. For m-MC I'm not sure.

4, it used to be Naoto. Now I'm not sure.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Jun 28th 2020 at 6:14:30 AM

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#58869: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:15:24 PM

I thought this site said Rise and Yukiko were basically in a deathmatch for first place when it came to ''who to ship Souji Seta YU NARUKAMI with.

Though Naoto being up there is not a shock either....wait, maybe they said Rise and Yukiko were fighting for the #2 position. That would make sense.

One Strip! One Strip!
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#58870: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:18:22 PM

According to AO 3, Shinjiro x Female Protagonist for Persona 3 and Kanji x Naoto for P4.

Edited by Smasher on Jun 28th 2020 at 9:19:55 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#58871: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:24:09 PM

for P3 the aigis ship is the one I still see with the most steam today, and if anything it has only gotten stronger over time with the resurgence of FEMC. i see quite a lot of robot lesbian ships around in other places.

It also helps that aigis has been the one who got the most development out of everything after p3 itself so she's a pretty easy pick.

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58872: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:30:53 PM

I always saw mad Chie Best Girl support wherever I posted when I got into the game in 2017.

If anything, Yukiko was the least favored by most at least when just the party members are considered. She's still probably ahead of Yumi or whatever.

Personally, Rise never did it for me because it felt like the game itself was pushing her as the best choice and I rejected that most strenuously. At least I took her aggressiveness in every cutscene to be the game trying too hard to ram us together.

But Aigis is the clear winner for P3. That one seems beyond dispute.

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#58873: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:35:06 PM

Makoto just seemed most like the heroine to me.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#58874: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:36:01 PM

I just see P3-P5 Kuns as being Poly, anyhow.

Just me.

P5 even has Polytheives as a tag on AO 3.

Watch Symphogear
MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#58875: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:38:11 PM

I romanced Chie on my first play-through of 4. I wanted to do Naoto on my second, but I couldn't finish her S-Link in time.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

Total posts: 66,260
Top