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OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58526: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:16:51 PM

You know they never did deal with the fact the Police being corrupt was a problem that lead into Ultimax either.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#58527: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:17:55 PM

I wonder if it ties in with cultural issues for japan like most of the weird decisions of persona in general.

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#58528: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:21:19 PM

Isn't corrupt and racist police a mostly American thing?

Edited by Smasher on Jun 10th 2020 at 8:22:22 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58529: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:21:55 PM

My issue is that it's JUST Yukari that acts like this. If more of the character were as conflicted as she was I wouldn't have minded, but as it stands the whole affair looks more like a way to pad out the game instead of an interesting character study. What I'd have done is;Keep Akihiko and Ken as they are, but have Mitsuru genuinely agree with Yukari and give Junpei some third reason not to agree with the other four. That makes the struggle Aigis faces difficult instead of tiresome.

Dirtyblue929 Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#58530: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:22:44 PM

[up][up] Pfft. Seriously? One of P5's biggest themes, particularly in its brutal opening sequence, is the ruthless and corrupt methods of Japanese law enforcement, particularly their tendency to detain suspects indefinitely and beat/drug them until they sign a confession, regardless of how much actual evidence there is against them.

As for racism, it isn't really touched on in any of the Persona games but Japan still kinda quietly holds on to the idea that its Imperial era in the 1900s was a golden age, which obviously offends all the east asian / south pacific nations and ethnicities that they brutally conquered and oppressed during that time, particularly Korea, who are infamously just as racist towards Japan due to resentment over the centuries of attempted Japanese conquests. Like, the flag of Imperial Japan is viewed similarly in those regions to how the flag of Nazi Germany is viewed in the west.

And of course there's just basic racial stereotypes, like viewing white people as dumb and horny or black people as tough and scary, the former getting a bit of discussion via Ann.

Edited by Dirtyblue929 on Jun 10th 2020 at 5:41:47 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#58531: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:23:49 PM

Japan does have its own discrimination issues.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 10th 2020 at 5:24:02 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#58532: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:26:20 PM

As someone who's been reading a lot of tabletop RPG books in my spare time, I recently stumbled upon a tabletop RPG called Voidheart Symphony that was inspired by Persona 5.

The premise of the tabletop RPG is this: a long time ago, there was a castle full of monsters and evil magic that attempted to corrupt the world. Every generation, a group of heroes would storm the castle every time it manifested and defeat whatever dark lord was commanding it that generation.

In modern day, the castle no longer manifests physically, but instead spreads its metaphorical tendrils into the real world, offering power to people who are willing to trample on others to fulfill their own selfish desires. These people become known as Vassals, and they all possess a "shard" of the castle that takes the form of a mini-realm ruled by a monstrous avatar. So, basically think of Palaces and the Shadows of major targets in Persona 5.

You play as characters known as "rebels," people who have become aware of the castle, seen the suffering the Vassals inflict on the less fortunate, and resolved to fight back. They storm the castle shards, track down and defeat the Vassal, and hopefully improve life for the people the Vassal victimized. And yes, you can create Vassals such as rabid cops, abusive corporate managers, bigoted bureaucrats, etc.

The game even has a "Covenant" system that's basically Social Links and Confidants, even using tarot cards to determine the nature of the covenant. For anyone who enjoys tabletop games and Persona 5, this one might be worth checking out.

Also of note is that Voidheart Symphony is a standalone sequel to another tabletop RPG called Rhapsody of Blood. That game is more Castlevania than Persona 5 though, and sports different mechanics.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 22nd 2020 at 4:44:31 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#58533: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:28:45 PM

[up]x4 I don't think what Ken and akihiko are doing are all that healthy either though. It felt to me as they were trying to run away from the pain rather than trying to actually move on, hence why the disagreement causes the group to fall apart in opposition to junpei who actually wants to talk things through with everyone. There's a sense that they'd rather lose the friends they made over the course of the story and isolate themselves rather than face their problems.

Ken and Akihiko's point look sound from our perspective because we don't have the option to bring back the dead. But in their position where they might, it comes off more as a rationalisation not to think about it rather than a geniune desire to keep things that way.

While some of the plot is guilty of contrivance for the sake of padding by splitting the group in four groups of two, and I do agree the plotline could have used some ironing out to truly make it what I see it for and less what it ends up being, I do think saying Yukari was the only one wrong here is missing that Ken and Akihiko aren't exactly right either. Ultimately, the reason the game gives for keeping things that way aren't that it wouldn't be right to bring back the dead, but that doing so would doom the world again.

[up]I think I remember seeing Voidheart come up as it was being crowdfunded. If that's the one I think about, it's pretty much self admits it's heavily inspired by p5.

Edited by Yumil on Jun 10th 2020 at 2:36:26 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58534: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:40:16 PM

From what I've heard the Japanese justice system makes the American one look almost cuddly by comparison, as hard to believe as that sounds.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58535: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:42:09 PM

It has a much higher conviction rate and a "guilty even when proven innocent" mentality for a reason.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#58536: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:42:26 PM

from what i'm aware there's a lot less outright violence and a lot more institutional corruption

this is even brought up in persona 5, if you're accused of a crime you're pretty much instantly assumed guilty, regardless of evidence. the japanese justice system has a nearly 100% conviction rate.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#58537: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:42:29 PM

Well, an important difference with the american system is that theirs seem to have actually some results to be proud of, considering it has apparently single digit murders by firearms yearly deathcounts and that even death penalty isn't all that common, with entire years spent without any executions.

edit : this is not, in case this was unclear, an endorsement of the abuses needed to get there.

Edited by Yumil on Jun 10th 2020 at 2:43:46 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#58538: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:43:01 PM

different corruption is not better corruption

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58539: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:43:55 PM

Thats because their country has gun control, which murrica refuses even with every new school shooting that happens because its clearly not the fault of how easy it is to get guns! No sir!

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 10th 2020 at 5:44:27 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#58540: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:44:21 PM

Ace Attorney is all about how corrupt the Japanese legal system can be. It's just muddled by the English translation's insistence in it being Japanifornia.

The legend has returned.
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#58542: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:46:09 PM

[up][up][up]from my understanding ,even disregaridng the gun thing, they have a pretty low criminality overall.

I can't for the life of me agree with what it seemingly takes to get there but I find it harder to dismiss the logic when the system does seem to have been more efficient than our system (and I'm not talking about the US here) at reducing criminality than when it just plain doesn't work like in the US. I'm the kind of person who'd rather let a criminal go than condemn an innocent, but I don't think I could make this the morally superior opinion.

Edited by Yumil on Jun 10th 2020 at 2:53:52 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#58543: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:47:47 PM

Reminder that Ace Attorney is a parody of Japan's legal system, and von Karma not losing a case for 40 years is not that farfetched.

Bewitching Eyes
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#58545: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:49:16 PM

I can't for the life of me agree with what it seemingly takes to get there

this is a very complicated issue, but a lot of it has to do with

1. widespread cultural values specific to Japan, which has a very "keep your head down" mentality

2. incredibly harsh sentences

3. having a criminal record actually fucks up your life for good, and is part of why Joker having a criminal record was such a big deal. it wasnt just "oh, his classmates hate him", it's "Joker's life and future are dead on arrival"

unfortunately it has little to do with having a "more civil" society

Edited by EpicBleye on Jun 10th 2020 at 8:51:04 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#58546: Jun 10th 2020 at 5:51:26 PM

I mean yeah, I'm aware with how it works. It's just that I reject those values on a personnal level and it's a matter that's pretty integral to me in general. I'm just aware that not everyone would hold those opinions that way so I try to mark the difference with how I feel about it and how much I can expect other people to agree with it.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about japan to be able to tell whether or not their judicial system is a consequence or a cause of the low criminality, but I sure as hell don't have a good comeback to "yeah but it did reduce our criminality to basically nothing, did your judiciary system ever manage that one ?"

Also, that doflamingo quote is pretty on point, alas.

Edited by Yumil on Jun 10th 2020 at 2:53:39 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#58547: Jun 10th 2020 at 6:04:27 PM

About the executions, i'm told criminals who have the death penalty stay in isolation for years and then get executed. So that's why statistics show that it's low.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
vicarious vicarious from NC, USA Since: Feb, 2013
vicarious
#58548: Jun 10th 2020 at 6:10:53 PM

I can only imagine a canon Joker has an irreparable relationship with his parents

They dumped his ass as soon as the legal stuff ended. Distant parents (when they’re not dead) is a Persona trope but it gets harsher in light of P5. We see no mention of support whatsoever and Joker seems to be practically disowned.

Dude could have been super bitter like Shield Hero’s MC and it would be understandable

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#58549: Jun 10th 2020 at 6:13:42 PM

Consideirng some additions from royal, it might be what atlus is running with, yeah. accepting the dream reality has joker just stay with sojiro and the gang so apparently living in Sojiro's attic is better to him than whatever awaits him home

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58550: Jun 10th 2020 at 6:15:13 PM

I feel like that fact that Sojiro asks Joker to move in with him full time in Maruki's utopia is very indicative of our hero's opinion of his folks.


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