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RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#58251: May 20th 2020 at 8:57:19 AM

[up][up]It was 2008 when anime was breaking into Western geek culture so I guess it was "more acceptable" with stuff like the usual anime jokes and Yosuke's treatment of Kanji.

P4's aged like milk.

Edited by RodimusMinor on May 20th 2020 at 11:57:44 AM

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#58252: May 20th 2020 at 8:58:32 AM

Yeah he assumes they can cook, because Japan still believes in those gender roles. It's why the Feminine Girl is a Lethal Chef became a gag in the first place. It subverts the targets expectations.
Which would be fine if he made the assumption, realized his mistake, and then said "oh shit! my bad, I didn't know you weren't used to cooking. I'm not a fancy chef or anything but I can feed myself, here, let me show you what you did wrong" instead of "oh my god this is so terrible, you are failures as women and therefore as human beings, I am affronted that you would insult me by failing to provide me with delicious meals as is my due".

And you're also laser-focusing on the cooking thing and completely ignoring all the other things that I listed which contribute to Yosuke being a dumpster fire of a human being.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58253: May 20th 2020 at 9:22:58 AM

As has already been answered by Cosplay Thief, yeah Yosuke's not going to winnany decent human being awards ever, but this doesn't make the anime reactions and the like not ss insufferable as it.

And there's already holes in your argument like 1: they didn't have food to cook with. As part of that aweful joke both of them used all the food they had. So you can't even try to teach them to cook. 2. That requires shaking the status quo, which the game loves even more than anything that rocking the boat to improve is too life altering. To the point it outright ignores any developement they had in their Social Links(Arena spinoff outright has them rehashing old issues) to show how they aren't even allowed to be challenged. So the narrative itself won't ever let that happen.

2. Yosuke is a mouthpiece of Yu for the entire game. Which means half the stuff he spews from his mouth including the shitty ones like EW GAY are also supposed to be viewpoints of Yu himself. Yu can cook but chooses not to teach them or defend them because his viewpoint is the same as Yosuke's which is not good.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
ultimate_life_form Since: Aug, 2019
#58254: May 20th 2020 at 9:31:46 AM

...Yosuke could've been interesting too.

Also, I'm gonna complain. Shadow Yu was the lamest Shadow. and it should've been harder.

Yu is the most boring protagonist anyways.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#58255: May 20th 2020 at 9:38:28 AM

So looking at these criticisms of 4 and knowing the ones of 5,

why on Earth was Atlus ever considered deep or trying to say a message?

ultimate_life_form Since: Aug, 2019
#58256: May 20th 2020 at 9:39:56 AM

Persona 3. Persona 2. Persona.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58257: May 20th 2020 at 9:41:25 AM

It has a message. Whether it's good at conveying it is a different story.

Royal actually does pretty well in that regards to the new story added after the originals Final Boss.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#58258: May 20th 2020 at 9:42:36 AM

It's really P4 that hits the anime shlock rungs without anything substantial, while P3 and P5 do have some interesting aspects to their main themes (the inevitability and hopelessness of death, and living in a society that coddles the rich and lets them run rampant).

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#58259: May 20th 2020 at 9:48:16 AM

I kinda skipped the conversation, but if we're still talking about what Yosuke does, compared to what the girls do, we should all just agree that both sides are awful at times.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cosplaythief Since: Jun, 2013
#58260: May 20th 2020 at 9:54:45 AM

I don't know, I think P4's reaching for the truth/facing your true self is a message that is just as valid even if it's not one of those "cooler" message.

Now if it had character development integrated into the story instead of staying on status quo I think it would really improve the game.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58261: May 20th 2020 at 9:58:19 AM

Persona 4 came out when most of our generation were still in high school I'm assuming, so a game about a bunch of stupid teenagers that had to face their inner insecurities with a self insert protagonist that can date a bunch of cute girls seem revolutionary at the time.

Fast forward to 2020 and we're all adults with jobs and think that shit is stupid. P3 and P5 tend to get more praise for their themes than the cliche'd anime shit.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on May 20th 2020 at 1:02:13 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#58262: May 20th 2020 at 9:58:54 AM

P4 and P5 message also work well together because you need to face the truth to accept those who have authority are ahusing it.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58263: May 20th 2020 at 10:07:08 AM

The Hashino games all have a sort of overarching theme of facing down unpleasant realities that many people would rather ignore - death, harsh truths, and social injustice, respectively.

asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#58264: May 20th 2020 at 10:19:47 AM

Chie's worst story beat that never gets brought up is her spending all of Yosuke's money without asking him and telling him it'll be fine because he can just earn/borrow more.

Consider when 4 and Golden came out, and that is a really terrible thing to say.

Bewitching Eyes
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#58265: May 20th 2020 at 10:24:21 AM

P4's main problem in terms of theming is that it comes off as a Space Whale Aesop. Persona 3 is "death is inevitable, but that doesn't mean your choices don't matter". P5 is "you can make the world a better place by standing up to corruption, even when they're in positions of authority". P4 is "if you accept yourself for who you are, even the parts you hate, then you can avoid being murdered by the physical manifestation of your id and also catch a serial killer I guess".

P4 doesn't mesh its themes and its plot nearly as well as P3 or P5.

Edited by NativeJovian on May 20th 2020 at 1:24:43 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58266: May 20th 2020 at 10:32:51 AM

Not quite. Persona 4 is about figuring out the answer to Persona 3'd theme. Specifically, if Persona's 3''s answer about Death is trying our best to live life to the fullest regardless, then Persona 4 is a game asking us what it means to do just that. The conclusion is that living our lives to the fullest means making connections with people you can rely on and who can rely on you in turn, even if we won't always be around them as much as we like to be.

The problem is more on 5's end, where it doesn't do anything with its themes of social issues because every issue is just some asshole disrupting the status quo instead of someone who's a byproduct of a larger issue with societal norms.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#58267: May 20th 2020 at 10:35:26 AM

Except for Royals new final boss, which seems to be a answer to that specific criticism.

Watch Symphogear
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58268: May 20th 2020 at 10:35:48 AM

Wow this thread's become so negative. We're literally debating which game flubbed its message the worst right now.

As I said I still believe the Hashino games all still contain much more good than bad, not that the bad isn't noticeable in some cases (the cruel humor, the bungled handling of LGBT characters).

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#58269: May 20th 2020 at 10:37:14 AM

the bungled handling of LGBT characters

Except for Lala Escargot somehow. I think she's still pretty cool.

One Strip! One Strip!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58270: May 20th 2020 at 10:38:28 AM

[up] I'd totally play Drag Bar Simulator Featuring Lala from the Persona Series, not gonna lie.

Cosplaythief Since: Jun, 2013
#58271: May 20th 2020 at 10:41:06 AM

People always seem to forget about Lala for some reason.

That said, I firmly believe P5's protag wanted to try wearing more feminine clothing and got stopped everytime.

My man got robbed.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#58272: May 20th 2020 at 10:43:49 AM

We're focused overly hard on the negatives, so that's why we're not mentioning stuff like Lala-chan or Yosuke's excellent Social Link.

The legend has returned.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#58273: May 20th 2020 at 10:45:29 AM

Not quite. Persona 4 is about figuring out the answer to Persona 3'd theme. Specifically, if Persona's 3''s answer about Death is trying our best to live life to the fullest regardless, then Persona 4 is a game asking us what it means to do just that.
Even if P4's theme is "how does one live a good life?" instead of "accepting hard truths is necessary unless you want to live a lie", that still doesn't really tie into "supernatural murder mystery" as well as P3's "death is coming for you, the question is how you face it" ties in with "facing off against the literal incarnation of human mortality" or P5's "authority misused is no longer legitimate" ties in with "defying authority to expose the corruption of increasingly-important people".

If P4's theme of "hard truths" was going to tie into the murder mystery plot, then the murders would have had to have been their fault — or at least something they could have stopped if they had been honest with themselves, but instead they let themselves be blinded by comfortable lies. Instead it's... just kind of a mundane murder mystery, and their failure to solve it until the end has nothing to do with willful blindness to difficult truths.

Edited by NativeJovian on May 20th 2020 at 1:46:27 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#58274: May 20th 2020 at 10:47:02 AM

Lala-chan should really have been a Confidant but I'm having trouble thinking what her bonus should be. Obvious answer would be access to stat-altering drinks or something like that, except she's explicitly very much against underage drinking since she's a sweet mother hen like that.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#58275: May 20th 2020 at 10:49:22 AM

I still think Persona 5 handled it's messages great.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

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