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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57826: Apr 7th 2020 at 9:43:39 AM

Akechi hardly even counts a villain because he pretty goes through Defeat Means Friendship is accepted as one of the group in the post-game. He's not even the main bad guy in 5, and Shido was perfectly aware that he was going to try and betray him.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#57827: Apr 7th 2020 at 9:48:03 AM

Phantom Thieves are individuals who steal and are self-interested, but also are willing to screw over far worse individuals in the process and help people by proxy.

Arsene himself literally did that. He stole objects because he liked them, and if the person he stole from was scum, he made sure their crimes would be unveiled as he stole from them.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Apr 7th 2020 at 9:48:48 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#57828: Apr 7th 2020 at 10:06:16 AM

If I thought about it I probably do only like Akechi and Nyx Avatar.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#57829: Apr 7th 2020 at 10:08:59 AM

I separate supernatural enemies from the human ones.

Because the nonhumans are by default better than them.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#57830: Apr 7th 2020 at 10:12:01 AM

They usually are yeah, but Nyx Avatar represents like the endpoint of the all powerful cosmic deities of Persona even more than Nyarlathotep.

Plus despite hating all of Persona 3 that final boss is fucking A.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#57831: Apr 7th 2020 at 11:44:52 AM

I'm fine with the Persona 5 villains being cartoonishly evil because they're all distorted desires, of course they'd be one-note.

The legend has returned.
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#57832: Apr 7th 2020 at 11:55:28 AM

I think the "cartoony evil in real life" applies to all of the Conspiracy, Okumura, and Kaneshiro.

It's only the first two villains who present any sort of decorum.

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#57833: Apr 7th 2020 at 11:58:30 AM

I just thought it worked for most of them I guess. They're toads given power over the young and helpless and get to do whatever the hell they want with them and if we've ever known a bully we know how animalistic they get when given unilateral power over a helpless victim that the authorities don't care about helping.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#57834: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:01:50 PM

It's funny how people call those in particular cartoonishly evil, when some of them are based on RL people.

Like Okumura was based on a dude who overworked at least one employee to death and still got into politics despite the scandal.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57835: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:03:22 PM

You know what, when you actually get down to it....Persona antagonists, particularly the later ones, kind of suck actually. Even Adachi and Akechi, only become better characters after they stop being villains.

Yes, Adachi was not always popular and Akechi was divisive for the longest time before Royal recontextualized his role and made him more of an antihero foil for Joker.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#57836: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:05:07 PM

I feel like that's a problem in Shin Megami Tensei too, so it's a deeply rooted problem that the villains aren't very good in terms of quality.

The legend has returned.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#57837: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:05:49 PM

Personally i think Shido was one of the better antagonists in the Persona series. He actually has a plan to profit off the mental world, is a hate sink without being over the top, actually feels like a threat, and had some determination you could respect like killing himself temporarily to get rid of the thieves.

[up] Should say something that Lucifer is one of the most popular characters in SMT and it's usually because of his ally incarnations in 2 and 3.

But YHVH and Yaldabaoth are fine villains in the context of the series, what's so bad about them?

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 7th 2020 at 12:07:28 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#57838: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:06:20 PM

Even Adachi..., only become better characters after they stop being villains.

wat

Oh right and Royal did change stuff bout Akechi didn't it? I don't remember any of it though.

Edited by RodimusMinor on Apr 7th 2020 at 3:10:04 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57839: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:12:53 PM

Yes, I had a friend who is very much into Persona and she said she didn't care much about Adachi because she felt he was just a baby throwing a tantrum.

It was only after the Persona 4 Anime, Golden and Ultimax where his character was fleshed out beyond his villainous traits that people started to come around, but by that point he wasn't even much of a villain any more.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#57840: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:13:12 PM

Speaking of Persona Villains, is the reception to Takuto Maruki still positive or did it grow negative after the initial shock? Like he has the potential to be the greatest human villain yet.

[up] Isn't that like the point of Adachi? That he's basically a pathetic man child granted power? Naoto even spells it out.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 7th 2020 at 12:16:49 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57841: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:14:20 PM

We gotta wait and see, the game isn't even a week old and I don't think people got there yet.

He's easily the best human antagonist, so much so that you almost feel bad for beating him

[up] Yea, but that doesn't really make for a compelling antagonist; and his boss fight is pretty much just a warm up for Ameno-Sagiri.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Apr 7th 2020 at 3:18:01 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#57842: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:15:58 PM

And he still has the right amount of ruthlessness that you understand why you have to kick his ass.

On the other hand, that is the point of Adachi, he's not supposed to be compelling like that, he's supposed to be someone you want to beat the shit out off. Even the team expresses disappointment at his petty motive.

From that view, Adachi did his job well, he's a pathetic man child throwing a tantrum, he's not like the Joker where he's stylishly evil, or sympathetic like Mr. Freeze. That's what the writers want you to feel.

The writers are trying to avert evil is cool, but i guess a lot of players identified with his feelings.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 7th 2020 at 12:18:58 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#57843: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:18:30 PM

Oh right, I forgot about Takuto. I can't wait to see how his character arc goes for myself.

The legend has returned.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57844: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:19:00 PM

I feel like Persona has shitty villains is for a similar reason the MCU had terrible villains for so long. The focus is on the main characters and their relationships, with the villain just really serving as an obstacle to that.

That feels very much like the case with Shido; outside of what he did to Joker, he feels very much just like obstacle rather than a climactic fight between Arch Enemies.

[up][up] Well then the developers kind of missed the point given how sympathetic they made Adachi in later installments :V

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Apr 7th 2020 at 3:20:17 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#57845: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:20:22 PM

[up] It really depends on what you want from a villain, like i'd argue Akechi and Shido are quite good villains for what they are.

Such is the consequences of a misaimed fandom and a loud fanbase.

Being a pathetic man child throwing a tantrum because life didn't go his way resonated with certain people it seems.

Plus his VA in both languages are great.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 7th 2020 at 12:21:55 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#57846: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:21:45 PM

Persona 5's villains being 'cartoonishly evil' is sadly very much a case of Reality is Unrealistic

Because people do act like them, all the time. And regarding Okumura, we have had reports from, like, only a few weeks ago of CEO's etc telling people to come into work or you're fired despite the deadly and highly contagious virus. Because we can't forget that bottom line, who cares if a few people die?

He only seems cartoonish because we literally only ever interact with his Shadow, his real self only appears in, what, two scenes?

And as for Shido, well in real life, a corrupt, selfish megalomaniac who openly commits sexual assault and uses his influence to suppress his victims could NEVER get elected in real life, RIIIIIGHT?

Also I kinda like that Shido was responsible for Joker's arrest, because it means his entire plot unravelled because of how ridiculously petty he was.

Edited by asterism on Apr 7th 2020 at 7:22:51 PM

Bewitching Eyes
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#57847: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:23:36 PM

[up] Yes, i wrote that most of Persona 5's villains are realistic, like Okumura's real life version. Again, he entered politics and has a successful career despite the scandal involving the death of his employee and the family lawsuit. Also Gamestop management will happily remind you how little employees matter to the company survival.

Certain naive people claim Kamoshida would never happen IRL, but RL begs to differ. Repeatedly.

Madarame is a plagiarizer guilty of abuse, how many times have you heard that over the news?

Kaneshiro is a fucking mob boss. What do people expect.

I would like to point out that Shido's shadow has the imperial Japan symbol on his outfit. Political commentary. And if you follow certain circles, Shido's pettiness is nothing out of the ordinary for his ilk.

That's honestly why i love to hate the Persona 5 villains and consider them top tier Persona villains.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 7th 2020 at 12:29:01 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57848: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:32:57 PM

Too bad, we're the minority given public opinion seems to be that Kamoshida is the only worthwhile villain and everything goes downhill after him. I guess it really does depend on what you want out of a villain, and Persona 5 came out in a time when we were getting villains like Thanos.

I find it interesting because Shido and Akechi are basically decomposites of Adachi; the former is the mastermind behind the series of events happening, while the latter is the societal reject that represents the protagonists' antithesis.

But it is kind of hard to argue that Adachi (and later Akechi) became way more popular after they made the turn to antihero....if only because of Yaoi fangirls

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Apr 7th 2020 at 3:33:35 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57849: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:35:43 PM

Adachi works because at the end of the day, he's just supposed to be a Serial Killer. A grander motive wouldn't make sense for him or the kind of story Persona 4 was trying to tell (because they threw the low scale plot out at the last minute).

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#57850: Apr 7th 2020 at 12:35:44 PM

[up][up] So we both agree that the Persona 5 villains are all worthwile?

Like i dig the social commentary and weep when i read the real life inspirations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miki_Watanabe

Like holy shit, what a loathsome human being.

Also i think Akechi was at his best when fighting the Thieves on the Ship, with his VA giving such a damn good performance, but i'm looking forward to his anti-hero phase, but i don't want him redeemed, in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if he was plotting murder against the thieves after the game.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 7th 2020 at 12:37:13 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

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