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ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#57076: Oct 12th 2019 at 10:04:10 PM

That's exactly a common feeling with shonen.

You love it wholeheartedly at first but over time you realize the flaws and no longer blindly love it as a result of seeing it for everything that it is.

Unless I notice something really bad, I usually am able to love this stuff even after some the sheen wears off. Persona 4 is imperfect in a lot of ways, but the feeling of warmth I get from exploring Inaba and building "relationships" with the Investigation Team is still valid.

Edited by ThriceCharming on Oct 12th 2019 at 11:05:24 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#57077: Oct 12th 2019 at 10:06:35 PM

[up] Alright, good for you.

Shonen's long-lasting for a reason.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Hashil Since: Aug, 2010
#57078: Oct 12th 2019 at 10:52:03 PM

I've had kind of reverse reaction to Persona 4 over time to Drag's.

Used to hate it with a passion for how Kanji in particular was handled that amplified every little thing I disliked about it.

Now I'm just indifferent to it and can at least appreciate the handful of things I think it does well.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#57079: Oct 12th 2019 at 11:01:36 PM

I don't see how Kanji being gay would undermine his character arc.

"Oh you can like these things as long as you're not a homo" seems like a weird message for a game about pursuing thy true self.

It's the same issue that Thrice brought up about Naoto being trans. The issue they're dealing with isn't sexuality or gender identity, it's gender roles. Naoto doesn't think of herself as a man, she thinks of herself as a detective (a traditionally male role). Similarly, Kanji's issue isn't that he's attracted to men and in denial about it, it's that he's a cishet male who enjoys stereotypically feminine hobbies. The message in both cases is "fuck gender roles, do what you want, not what society tells you you should want".

To be fair, the gay/trans message could have been a solid way to portray the characters. But "if a guy likes feminine things it's because they're actually gay" and "it's okay for someone AFAB to want to do a man's job as long as they're trans" ain't exactly great takes.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57080: Oct 12th 2019 at 11:05:59 PM

Yea, those are ironically more offensive takes when you really dress it down. "If this male character likes stereotypically feminine things and acts flustered around males, then he's clearly gay and should be represented as such"

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Hashil Since: Aug, 2010
#57081: Oct 12th 2019 at 11:09:50 PM

I don't think people would take issue with his not being gay had it not been for his dungeon and Yosuke's continued homophobic treatment of Kanji long after the issue should of been put to rest.

If the intended take away was that it's okay for boys to be into feminine things, maybe they shouldn't of have also said that gays are hilaaaaarious first.

Edited by Hashil on Oct 12th 2019 at 12:10:25 PM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#57082: Oct 12th 2019 at 11:10:20 PM

Good thing its never the hobby itself that people wish to define him as gay!

Or how Naoto to be with a man must act as a woman as her romance shows.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#57083: Oct 12th 2019 at 11:12:37 PM

Wasn't the anime worse about Kanji's dungeon?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
deludedmusings Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#57084: Oct 12th 2019 at 11:14:04 PM

Ooh yeah. That scene in the anime is pretty horrendous.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#57085: Oct 12th 2019 at 11:14:14 PM

About on par. But it played comedy a lot more, including Shadow Naoto making Yu and Yosuke old men.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#57086: Oct 13th 2019 at 12:30:28 AM

Kanji's dungeon was weird because the dungeons were about what people feared they were rather than what they actually were, but the reason those fears existed was because there was a kernel of truth behind them. Chie isn't actually a self-absorbed dominatrix, but she does have a tendency to be overbearing. Yukiko isn't actually a helpless damsel, but she does tend to be passive rather than try to fix her problems. Kanji isn't actually an exaggerated caricature of a stereotypical gay man, but he does... like arts and crafts? It doesn't work that well.

Kanji would have been fine if his dungeon was about being seen as weak and pathetic rather than being seen as gay — or if he actually was gay, and he was afraid that if he admitted it then he would have to start acting like the stereotype. Either way, the lesson would be that he can be himself — whether that's a tough dude with feminine interests, or a gay man who defies Camp Gay stereotypes.

Ultimately, Kanji's arc equates "effeminate" with "gay", and then turns around and rejects that equivocation. Which is good, because effeminate and gay aren't equivalent! (Both Straight Gay and Camp Straight are things, after all.) But the the problem is that in the process it also kinda rejects the idea of being gay, which isn't great. It seems like they could have tackled the sexual orientation thing with Kanji and then the gender role thing with Naoto... but then again, maybe they needed both. "It's okay for men to be feminine" is a different message than "it's okay for women to take on traditionally male-dominated jobs", and one that I feel like doesn't get said as often. So it's complicated.

That said, Yosuke's casual homophobia is shitty regardless of everything else. So fuck that.

Edited by NativeJovian on Oct 13th 2019 at 3:31:30 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#57087: Oct 13th 2019 at 12:35:54 AM

Naoto's whole thing is that she's into things consdered for boys in general, even her dungeon reflects this. Which is why you get shit like Kanji wanting her to wear female clothes or making her dress like a woman when she's happy as she is. It goes much deeper than her job, and the games do a bad job of relecting she just prefers boys stuff because male characters try to make her act more feminine.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#57088: Oct 13th 2019 at 12:53:39 AM

I always got the impression that she just really wanted to be a detective, and only went all-in on the "acting like a boy" thing because she knew how male-dominated the detective business was, and she knew it would be even harder to be taken seriously if she acted at all feminine. Shadow Naoto is less about being a girl who likes boy-coded things, and more about adults not taking her seriously because of her age and gender, despite her actual legitimate skill at detective work.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#57089: Oct 13th 2019 at 1:00:07 AM

She was always into boy stuff even as a kid. Even Her Shadows dungeon is based on old cartoons for boys.

It wasn't solely detectives.

Even her issues were based around wanting to be taken seriously as an adult, which is why her Shadow acts like a younger child.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 13th 2019 at 1:01:16 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#57090: Oct 13th 2019 at 5:13:38 AM

I've been to places where saying would get you shanked, you have my respect.
Listen, I like Kawakami as a character, and I wouldn't be averse to dating her... if she wasn't Joker's teacher. Dating her kinda undermines the entire arc of her confidant, since it then becomes a story of her regaining her passion for her job and dealing with an attempt to blackmail her for something sordid she does on the side, and capping it off with something that would make her lose her job forever should it come out, and therefore is also ripe blackmail material.

Bewitching Eyes
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#57091: Oct 13th 2019 at 8:14:13 AM

If they made Joker just a little older, it wouldn’t be gross.

The legend has returned.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#57092: Oct 13th 2019 at 8:15:12 AM

I'd be averse to dating her even if she wasn't Joker's teacher because Joker's a minor. Though the fact that she is and the whole situation just makes it extra gross.

Now I'm just indifferent to it and can at least appreciate the handful of things I think it does well.

That's more or less where I'm at with the game too nowadays.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 13th 2019 at 11:25:33 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57093: Oct 13th 2019 at 8:43:44 AM

If they said they'd anchor the relationship until after Joker graduates, it'd be less skeevy

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#57094: Oct 13th 2019 at 10:29:57 AM

Similarly, Kanji's issue isn't that he's attracted to men and in denial about it, it's that he's a cishet male who enjoys stereotypically feminine hobbies.

But Kanji isn't hetero. He's crushing on Naoto long before he realizes she's a girl. The interpretation that his arc is entirely about gender roles and not about sexual orientation would work if it weren't for that. You could make the case that he's insecure about his "feminine" hobbies but not about his interest in men, but given everything else we know about him, that seems very unlikely.

RodimusMinor Professional Complainer Since: Oct, 2018
Professional Complainer
#57095: Oct 13th 2019 at 10:32:50 AM

LGBT men are allowed to have hobbies that aren't traditionally masculine. It isn't a problem if Kanji recognizes he likes dudes and also sewing.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#57096: Oct 13th 2019 at 10:42:39 AM

[up] Exactly and the judging is a LOT worse in Japan.

If he actually wanted to say take over his grandmother's shop, he would be in an even worse spot than Naoto as he would be judged by everyone to the point where his only option would basically to label himself as gay and then get business from the self-segregated gay community.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#57097: Oct 13th 2019 at 2:02:41 PM

But Kanji isn't hetero. He's crushing on Naoto long before he realizes she's a girl.
Unfortunately, this is just a problem of P4's writing being inconsistent on the subject. Kanji himself insists that he's not gay even after accepting his shadow self and awakening to his persona, and we never see him actually attracted to men... just Naoto when he doesn't know she's a woman. So either he's gay and still in denial about it (which shoots the game's themes about accepting difficult truths about yourself in the foot) or he's Sweet on Polly Oliver (which is just sort of a gross trope in general).

LGBT men are allowed to have hobbies that aren't traditionally masculine. It isn't a problem if Kanji recognizes he likes dudes and also sewing.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with liking sewing regardless. The problem is that if Kanji was canonically gay, then it could easily come across as "if you're a dude who likes girly stuff, that's fine, it just means you're gay". Which is... a bad take.

Edited by NativeJovian on Oct 13th 2019 at 5:04:31 AM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#57098: Oct 13th 2019 at 2:14:35 PM

Sweet on Polly Oliver is well a common trope in Japan.

A guy hitting on a guy who looks like a girl or the other way around is really common, just nothing will become of it. You see it a lot in anime, its a reason why Otokonoko exists and its done a lot for Bokukko as well.

There are Hostess clubs in Japan specifically for that, even ones who dont tell you who is who.

Edited by Memers on Oct 13th 2019 at 2:40:46 AM

asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#57099: Oct 13th 2019 at 2:43:49 PM

There needs to be a Polly Oliver story where the guy loses interest when he finds out she's really a woman.

Bewitching Eyes
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#57100: Oct 13th 2019 at 2:55:01 PM

[up]Unsettling Gender-Reveal its not all that uncommon.

EDIT: Need to be able to link the video examples... bah.

The third one there from HeartCatch Pretty Cure! is a good one.

Edited by Memers on Oct 13th 2019 at 2:58:17 AM


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