"Oh you can like these things as long as you're not a homo" seems like a weird message for a game about pursuing thy true self.
To be fair, the gay/trans message could have been a solid way to portray the characters. But "if a guy likes feminine things it's because they're actually gay" and "it's okay for someone AFAB to want to do a man's job as long as they're trans" ain't exactly great takes.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.I don't think people would take issue with his not being gay had it not been for his dungeon and Yosuke's continued homophobic treatment of Kanji long after the issue should of been put to rest.
If the intended take away was that it's okay for boys to be into feminine things, maybe they shouldn't of have also said that gays are hilaaaaarious first.
Edited by Hashil on Oct 12th 2019 at 12:10:25 PM
Kanji's dungeon was weird because the dungeons were about what people feared they were rather than what they actually were, but the reason those fears existed was because there was a kernel of truth behind them. Chie isn't actually a self-absorbed dominatrix, but she does have a tendency to be overbearing. Yukiko isn't actually a helpless damsel, but she does tend to be passive rather than try to fix her problems. Kanji isn't actually an exaggerated caricature of a stereotypical gay man, but he does... like arts and crafts? It doesn't work that well.
Kanji would have been fine if his dungeon was about being seen as weak and pathetic rather than being seen as gay — or if he actually was gay, and he was afraid that if he admitted it then he would have to start acting like the stereotype. Either way, the lesson would be that he can be himself — whether that's a tough dude with feminine interests, or a gay man who defies Camp Gay stereotypes.
Ultimately, Kanji's arc equates "effeminate" with "gay", and then turns around and rejects that equivocation. Which is good, because effeminate and gay aren't equivalent! (Both Straight Gay and Camp Straight are things, after all.) But the the problem is that in the process it also kinda rejects the idea of being gay, which isn't great. It seems like they could have tackled the sexual orientation thing with Kanji and then the gender role thing with Naoto... but then again, maybe they needed both. "It's okay for men to be feminine" is a different message than "it's okay for women to take on traditionally male-dominated jobs", and one that I feel like doesn't get said as often. So it's complicated.
That said, Yosuke's casual homophobia is shitty regardless of everything else. So fuck that.
Edited by NativeJovian on Oct 13th 2019 at 3:31:30 PM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Naoto's whole thing is that she's into things consdered for boys in general, even her dungeon reflects this. Which is why you get shit like Kanji wanting her to wear female clothes or making her dress like a woman when she's happy as she is. It goes much deeper than her job, and the games do a bad job of relecting she just prefers boys stuff because male characters try to make her act more feminine.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.I always got the impression that she just really wanted to be a detective, and only went all-in on the "acting like a boy" thing because she knew how male-dominated the detective business was, and she knew it would be even harder to be taken seriously if she acted at all feminine. Shadow Naoto is less about being a girl who likes boy-coded things, and more about adults not taking her seriously because of her age and gender, despite her actual legitimate skill at detective work.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.She was always into boy stuff even as a kid. Even Her Shadows dungeon is based on old cartoons for boys.
It wasn't solely detectives.
Even her issues were based around wanting to be taken seriously as an adult, which is why her Shadow acts like a younger child.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 13th 2019 at 1:01:16 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.I'd be averse to dating her even if she wasn't Joker's teacher because Joker's a minor. Though the fact that she is and the whole situation just makes it extra gross.
That's more or less where I'm at with the game too nowadays.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 13th 2019 at 11:25:33 AM
But Kanji isn't hetero. He's crushing on Naoto long before he realizes she's a girl. The interpretation that his arc is entirely about gender roles and not about sexual orientation would work if it weren't for that. You could make the case that he's insecure about his "feminine" hobbies but not about his interest in men, but given everything else we know about him, that seems very unlikely.
Exactly and the judging is a LOT worse in Japan.
If he actually wanted to say take over his grandmother's shop, he would be in an even worse spot than Naoto as he would be judged by everyone to the point where his only option would basically to label himself as gay and then get business from the self-segregated gay community.
Edited by NativeJovian on Oct 13th 2019 at 5:04:31 AM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Sweet on Polly Oliver is well a common trope in Japan.
A guy hitting on a guy who looks like a girl or the other way around is really common, just nothing will become of it. You see it a lot in anime, its a reason why Otokonoko exists and its done a lot for Bokukko as well.
There are Hostess clubs in Japan specifically for that, even ones who dont tell you who is who.
Edited by Memers on Oct 13th 2019 at 2:40:46 AM
There needs to be a Polly Oliver story where the guy loses interest when he finds out she's really a woman.
Bewitching Eyes
Unsettling Gender-Reveal its not all that uncommon.
EDIT: Need to be able to link the video examples... bah.
The third one there from HeartCatch Pretty Cure! is a good one.
Edited by Memers on Oct 13th 2019 at 2:58:17 AM

You love it wholeheartedly at first but over time you realize the flaws and no longer blindly love it as a result of seeing it for everything that it is.
Unless I notice something really bad, I usually am able to love this stuff even after some the sheen wears off. Persona 4 is imperfect in a lot of ways, but the feeling of warmth I get from exploring Inaba and building "relationships" with the Investigation Team is still valid.
Edited by ThriceCharming on Oct 12th 2019 at 11:05:24 AM