Persona series

At the risk of speaking over them, I don't think that's what they're talking about. Pretty sure they're LGBT+ based on past posts and is talking about the LGB Tphobic jokes and assumptions in the games. Like if you're gonna make a game aimed at male otaku that's one thing but there's no excuse for the gross gay predator jokes that exist in the last 3 games.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Aug 26th 2019 at 10:55:40 AM

While they aren't the only Atlus games with problems (see also: Manikin Shopkeeper) I've noticed that virtually every game Katsura Hashino directs contains really in-you-face LGBT-phobic "jokes," which makes me wonder if it's a bugbear of his in particular.

If that's what he was referring to, then my mistake for misunderstanding.

Well, back when all that stuff about the Catherine re-release was going down, people were saying it was, at least.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Aug 26th 2019 at 11:18:27 AM

Of course, those are merely assumptions. Unless he comes out and says outright that he's anti LGBTQ like Koichi Sugiyama did, I'll take peoples ideas on that being the case with a grain of salt.

Katsura Hashino, give him a Boot to the Head.

I blame Atlus itself for that shit. Sure he directed those games but others let it go through too.

I will say though that Hashino has made public some other views that kind of speak to some of the problems the games have.

Like in an interview for one of the artbooks (I'm very tired and about to sleep now so I can dig it up later in case anyone wants to see it) he says that he has trouble imagining men and women forming platonic friendships, which intentionally or not is reflected in P3's terrible mechanic where you have no choice whether you want to date a girl or not if you get far enough into her s-link. Thankfully at least that's not the case anymore.

yeah Hashino's not the only person to blame here, the problem is bigger than just him.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Aug 26th 2019 at 11:24:48 AM

If that was why that mechanic existed, then what do you think made him change his mind (assuming he made that call, mind you)? Maybe because everyone hated it?

Yeah I imagine it was probably because it wasn't very well-received and made things very inconvenient from a gameplay standpoint.

@Black Yakuzu 94 It was in fact, what i was referring to. sorry for my vague wording.

@reasons the persona series poor handling of LGBT issues, as well as its many LGBT-phobic "jokes", and the blatant male outaku pandering (I do not need a shot of the teenage girls tight panties at the beach) Irk me as much as they do, is because past all of that, I know there is a good game, and personally, Persona's 3 and 4 do hold a special place in my heart as works of art that have moved me as I can push past their problematic elements that irk me.

and the reason I can't with Persona 5 is thats its 2019, current year argument, and the series is still pulling the same shit it always has. even worse, its doubled down on its worst traits, while sidelining the things that made Persona's 3 and 4 worth it to me.

Edited by Jetyl on Aug 26th 2019 at 8:37:41 AM

I personally think that it's actually better then Persona 3 and 4, if anything, in regards to some of those issues. Lala-chan is well loved, and Ohya, despite having the worst social link benefits in the game, is heavily implied to have been in a relationship with her Jourlist partner Kayo before the latter got Mental Shutdowned by Shido.

Persona 3 and 4 don't have anyone like Lalachan in them. They have that one bearded lady from 3, and 4 has Kashiwagi and Hanako, who I think are actually worse then the predators from 5, and Kanji's treatment in 4 is honestly far worse as well becasue he's a main character as opposed to a very tiny minor character.

Yakuza actually has more respect for LGBT people, as the Mama of one of the Bars Kiryu frequents is treated respectfully, and Kiryu himself doen't think negatively at all of Her or other Okamas.

Except the time Majima dressed up as Goromi-chan, and thats only because of the Jarring change from Normal Majima, and its actually funny because you still talk to him like you do any of the other Hostesses in the Hostess minigame from that series, and he's still a good sport about all of it, because he knows its just Majima trying to piss him off.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Aug 26th 2019 at 11:43:15 AM

To me the LGBT stuff is their biggest problematic element, but since 3 Persona's always had little disconcerting moments. Like the conformist overtones of 4 that heavily favor the cast getting rid of their unique styles or personality traits to better adjust to society. Or the Nanako mess, where a neglectful, borderline abusive parent is excused for his actions.

wait, what? excuse me?

i really don't remember dojima being particularly neglectful, much less abusive

I would say he's neglectful. She is after a all a young girl who does most (all?) of the housework, who has already gotten used to hearing her father isn't coming home.

How long has his wife been dead?

Cause at a certain point you gotta stop mourning a little & cease letting your elementary school aged child do all the house work like a maid.

i do think it's important to keep in mind that it's more dojima needing to work around the clock, especially given the string of murders and him needing to pay for two children and himself

and not, yknow, him not caring about his child

it isn't like he's forcing nanako to do everything or he's doing it to ignore her because he's out not doing his job most of the time

neglect would imply that he's not doing his job literally all the time to keep them afloat

it's not like he has any better options given how we already know junes is putting people out of jobs already

Edited by EpicBleye on Aug 26th 2019 at 1:19:29 PM

A couple years, before the game starts, I think?

I admit, it's been a while, I thought the implication was he was throwing himself into his work as a way to not deal with the emotional hurt he suffered.

Edited by deludedmusings on Aug 27th 2019 at 3:21:20 AM

Yup that's long enough.

Gotta remember, it’s Japan. A lot of social issues/opinions are quite a bit different.

Nanako as well, sadly. Single parents having to work 100 hour work weeks is actually pretty common. Dojima is actually presented better most honestly, you actually see him around a good amount when he isn’t dealing with murders and other crimes.

They do do a decent job presenting the social drinking issues in Japan, but most westerners probably didn’t get it.

Edited by Memers on Aug 26th 2019 at 10:42:01 AM

I can't see it as okay to let your 6 year old daughter be alone and do most of your household work. Especially before you come along to help. And really, for what? The guy's a pretty awful detective who doesn't have a lot to show for his work.

For all the flaws of 5, one thing that's a definite improvement is Sojiro. His daughter has a good excuse for staying home all the time, and he's always checking in on Futaba to make sure she's alright.

Um, to put food on the table? That's kind of important.

And really, it's hard to blame him for not making much headway on the case when he's out of the loop on the supernatural stuff.

Well that’s how we get Naoto on the case!

Didn’t say it was a good thing, just saying he is better than most as he is at least there when he can be. If he isn’t on the job or being forced into ‘social drinking’, which is a requirement of almost every Japanese workplace, he is at home with Nanako. With the way Japanese social systems work he can’t actually ask for help, you just deal with it unless someone offers.

Yu showing up was a godsend in like 50 different ways.

it's not like dojima has any other options. there's no one to look after nanako, and dojima needs to put food on the table and keep them in a house somehow.

besides, he's one of two detectives in the entire town, and the other one is his second in command who's doing the murders with magical powers he doesn't know about.

I've had a thought, what if Kasumi is the real Chaos representative? Sure Joker literally has a Lucifer stand-in as his ultimate Persona, shoots the YHVH stand-in in the face, and is all about opposing social harmony, but the Phantom Thieves of hearts strike me as Neutral heroes ultimately or at least Chaos reps who aren't too far gone. Looking at Kasumi's motivations for opposing the Thieves is that helping would be killstealing and that people should rely on themselves not the Thieves to fix their problems. That feels more like a traditional Chaos rep to me, don't chaos reps believe in Might makes right and scorn the weak in addition to freedom?