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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#51: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:00:50 PM

Yeah, so what? Doesn't prevent them from being the hero, and a good writer can still make you root for such a character.

shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#52: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:06:44 PM

[up]I'm skeptical. At least give an example.

edited 19th Oct '10 6:07:14 PM by shiro_okami

silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#53: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:09:10 PM

Lelouch.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
ManwiththePlan Since: Dec, 2009
#54: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:21:23 PM

V. Eerily similar case to Zero against Britannia, actually.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#55: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:23:28 PM

To us non-specific examples, the writer could save the fact that the villains had the moral high ground the whole time for a last-act twist; make things grey enough for the hero's sympathetic point of view to tip the scale in his favour despite Fridge Logic making you realize he's arguable in the wrong; have the hero be misguided or tricked into doing bad things; or make it so the villains have to be stopped for reasons irrelevant to morality  *

.

And that's just examples I thought up of what good writers can do. A great writer can pull it off in ways I never thought of, and a bad writer has all kinds of tricks at his disposal.

edited 19th Oct '10 6:25:14 PM by Gilphon

Nyktos (srahc 84) eltit Since: Jan, 2001
(srahc 84) eltit
#56: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:29:23 PM

@Arilou: True, but I still think the show would've been better — or at least more entertaining — my way.

I guess it is.
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#57: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:39:55 PM

[up][up]I don't think I'd root for The Hero in ANY of those instances, I've never read V For Vendetta (I've seen The Film of the Book, but it wasn't really that gray-on-gray), and if Lelouch himself is used as an example, it either contradicts the orginal argument  *

I was arguing against, or refers to after he started Jumping Off the Slippery Slope, which made me not like him as much.

Good try, but no.

edited 19th Oct '10 6:40:34 PM by shiro_okami

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#58: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:41:05 PM

Fine then, how about any good series on Grey-and-Grey Morality page?

shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#59: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:49:22 PM

Gray-and-Gray Morality mostly makes me apathetic; it would take a character being in mortal peril before I would really start cheering for him to win.

silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#60: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:49:49 PM

I was mostly joking when I mentioned Lelouch.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#62: Oct 19th 2010 at 6:59:10 PM

Then that's your problem and your problem alone, so please don't act like 'the hero has to have the clear moral high ground' is an absolute rule. I'm sorry, but declaring every work that tries for moral ambiguity to be bad writing is either outright wrong or relying so heavily on subjectivity that it makes the term 'subjective' effectively meaningless.

God forbid writers try to inject realism into the morality of their work, after all.

Or, hell, to use our own little statement, you can just keep the hero is constant mortal danger and not discuss the morality of situation at all and it'll work out to you rooting for him.

edited 19th Oct '10 7:01:16 PM by Gilphon

shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#63: Oct 19th 2010 at 7:07:23 PM

At no point did I say it was bad writing to have a morally ambiguous hero, or that I didn't like works of fiction with morally ambiguous heroes. I just said that I wouldn't root for a morally ambiguous one as much, and that I didn't enjoy Code Geass as much when Britannia vs. Lelouch was Gray-and-Gray Morality instead of Black-and-Gray Morality.

Don't put words in my mouth.

edited 19th Oct '10 7:11:57 PM by shiro_okami

emperorzaige Emperor Zaige Since: Dec, 2009
Emperor Zaige
#64: Oct 19th 2010 at 7:56:11 PM

  • If you honestly thought Light really had a chance at "making the world a better place", you're as foolish as he was. And I fail to see how trying to become dictator of the entire planet and silencing all opposition is "right" in any way, shape, or form.

Light is a genius. He did some foolish things but he was, by no means, foolish. As for failing to understand...Well I am sorry that you are a failure.

  • Complete Monster = pure evil. When has Freeza been ANYTHING but evil?

Lets see. How about the time he agreed to fight Nail out of the Elder's sight so the Elder didn't have to see? How about when Frieza agreed to quit causing collateral damage to Namek in his fight with Goku? Complete Monsters don't have Pet the Dog moments.

  • OK, if you honestly believe that Humans Are Bastards and humanity should be wiped out, then why are you still here? Shouldn't you have killed yourself in support of your ideals?

I still have to hang around to torment humanity some more. But seriously, I don't hate all humans. I just hate humanity as a collective and I wouldn't object to their annihilation.

  • Okay, I just noticed this. You seem to be under the impression that Draco In Leather Pants is always about villains who get justifiyed and loved by fans due to looks alone. No, it's when fans justify and excuse the actions of a villain and act as if he or she is not a villain. Which is what it comes across with your thoughts on Light and Sensui being "right".

Just because a character is intended to be a villain doesn't mean that I can't agree with the character on certain levels. Besides, people have thought that I was evil ever since I was a kid. Maybe I relate to the villains because I am one.

edited 19th Oct '10 8:06:29 PM by emperorzaige

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#65: Oct 19th 2010 at 7:58:21 PM

I'm not. You said

By definition, the villains have to be worse than The Hero,

and

And if The Hero doesn't have moral high ground it's sort of hard to root for him.

And I argued that the first statement was outright false, and showed ways the second could be false, and then just based my arguments on the logical implications of your statements from there. And 'moral ambiguity in a hero is bad writing' is a clear implication of the first statement, so if you didn't mean to say that, I suggest you try to word things a bit more carefully in the future. Speaking in absolutes about this sort of thing is generally a recipe for disaster.

And I was never trying to use any of this to say anything about Code Geass, I'm not really interested in that little debate. I just saw somebody using an incorrect argument, and felt the need to step in.

Edmond_Dantes The Bipolar Troper from Just Over There Since: Dec, 1969
The Bipolar Troper
#66: Oct 19th 2010 at 8:30:34 PM

Quoting from the original "Unpopular Anime Opinions" thread (since as I understand it that thread is for stating opinions and this is the thread for actually arguing them):

Sporkaganza sayeth:

Man, who even cares? It's Dragonball Z, not some groundbreaking work of art.

Edmond snaps. A glowing aura develops around his body. Rocks begin to fly into the air. His already-blonde hair stands on end and, in a flash, becomes more blonde, and he screams with the rage of heaven!

Being serious for a moment here, IMO Dragonball IS a work of art. "Groundbreaking" is a matter of debate, but you don't have to break new ground to be a work of art.

Grahf sayeth

The Dragonball series before the advent of Z (I know there's no distinction in Japan, if I remember correctly, but for the sake of clarity),

There's no distinction in the manga. The anime does indeed draw one.

was actually quite a good example of a decently plotted and executed Shonen work, where the interplay of comedic and serious elements that leans more towards the latter as the series continued was well handled. And the fights, despite having fantastic elements, were actually fairly well done and didn't drag on for tens of episodes.

To be honest, having the entire series of DBZ on DVD and watching it on a pseudo-regular basis, I'm surprised that it actually advances faster than is often given credit for. Granted, its still a little slower than most other anime, but hardly "one fight goes on for ten episodes" bad (maybe a major fight like Goku against Freeza, but those are rare).


And on a different note:

Kagami is not a tsundere, and Miyuki is not "moe."

"But Edmond!" Konata said, "How can you say that?"

Edmond turned to Konata and said "Well, Kagami says you once told her that the term 'tsundere' basically changes with usage, if I recall correctly. Now I mean, most words change their meaning over time, but we're talking about a word that basically has no agreed-upon definition and is mostly used because aspie kids—not saying you are one—can't come up with and don't want to have a real understanding of a person. Moe is exactly the same way."

Yes, I know, I should really stop basing my arguments on things fictional characters said.

The Kagami topic has now reached 201 posts! (Nov 5)
darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#67: Oct 19th 2010 at 9:23:37 PM

edited 19th Oct '10 9:24:18 PM by darksidevoid

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
neobowman つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX from Unidentified Proxy Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX
#68: Oct 19th 2010 at 9:27:35 PM

^ Agreed.

BrightBlueInk It's all a conspiracy. from Colorado, USA Since: Jan, 2001
It's all a conspiracy.
#69: Oct 19th 2010 at 10:39:24 PM

Light is a genius. He did some foolish things but he was, by no means, foolish. As for failing to understand...Well I am sorry that you are a failure.

...Dude. No. You have to back up your arguments better than that before you start calling people failures for not agreeing with you.

Light being a genius does not mean that he can't be foolish. Intelligence and wisdom are two different things. Light was foolish for putting so much pride in himself that he didn't think he could be corrupted—and it's very clear that he was corrupted. He'd hit the point of hurting innocents to create his "perfect" world, and that made him no better than the criminals he was killing. Hell, that's what Light is—a serial killer on a vast scale. He became worse than most of the criminals he was killing.

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.
KSPAM PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY from PARTY ROCK Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#72: Oct 19th 2010 at 10:59:23 PM

I'm starting to think I'm in the minority in that my opinions of Code Geass were apparently pretty close to what the writers were intending to get. (Though I agree that I found portraying the entire nation as CompleteMonsters was implausible, and thus found the toned down part more realistic.)

Random tangent: It is possible to like a character without thinking they are morally right. Light is my favourite character in Death Note, but I don't for a second think his morally right. He's just... interesting.

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Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#73: Oct 19th 2010 at 11:01:01 PM

@Agnus: Just to check that my tropese-to-English translators are working right, you mean that a series intended as a critique of lolicon became prime lolicon-bait, yes?

edited 19th Oct '10 11:01:21 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
KSPAM PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY from PARTY ROCK Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY
#74: Oct 19th 2010 at 11:04:16 PM

[up][up] That much I can agree with.

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
ArgeusthePaladin from Byzantine. Since: May, 2010

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