- If all humans are so terrible that anything done to them is justified, then anything humans do to each other is justified. And if anything humans do to each other is justified, then nothing they do is wrong. And if nothing they do is wrong, then they're not terrible at all, they're good people, even the ones who kill others. But if they're good people, then horrible things done to them would be a terrible sin. Repeat at step 1.
Humans also do terrible things to the environment. Not just to each other. But I don't think all humans are bad. I think that humanity as a collective are bad, and I can't say I really have much of an issue about their extinction. I understand where Sensui is comming from, but I don't really agree or disagree with what he does. I would prefer to get rid of just the asshole humans, but if the good ones HAVE to be destroyed for the sake of the bad ones, I would take that too.
Humans doing bad things out of ignorance or out of cultural acceptance is different than doing something purposeful and against society's norm.
Logical Fallacy: False Analogy.
Read my stories!Regarding Sensui's character: I actually liked him better before he got development.
As originally presented, Sensui was a Fallen Hero whose Black-and-White Morality had failed him, who completely snapped when he encountered a situation his very limited views could not handle. As a result, he was trying to pass judgment on the entire world for his own mistakes.
It seemed to be setting a conflict of ideals between Black And White Sensui who could not handle the complicated truths that he discovered, and Yusuke who is already something of an asshole and therefore doesn't have such unreasonable expectations to be shattered. I kind of expected Yusuke to actually be forced to confront at least part of the video itself, and to respond with a jaded, cynical, "People are assholes. What else is new?" and a punch.
Then...Yusuke started fighting him and the whole thing turned into an exercise in what random-ass thing they could throw onto the scene next. A contest of Ass Pulls.
edited 19th Oct '10 1:59:43 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Doesn't mean that I think they are misunderstood because they are 'SOOOOOOOO CUTE'.
Okay, I just noticed this. You seem to be under the impression that Draco in Leather Pants is always about villains who get justifiyed and loved by fans due to looks alone. No, it's when fans justify and excuse the actions of a villain and act as if he or she is not a villain. Which is what it comes across with your thoughts on Light and Sensui being "right".
I'm going to say Lelouch should have been more of a dick
I think the problem was less of Lelouch not being much of a dick (he's a Magnificent BASTARD for a reason) so much as his enemies, the Brittanian empire, was made too dickish and looked far worse in comparission to Lelouch, which made it easier for fans to view Lelouch as more sympathetic and justify all henious actions he took in trying to bring them down. It's like if the Task Force was made to look much worse than Light in Death Note. Lelouch's opposition had no "L" on their side to appeal to fans either. They only had Suzaku and look how he turned out for the fandom.
That's why, despite my dislike of R2, trying to portray Britannia as less over-the-top evil and racist was the right thing to do. Sadly, it probably came too late.
Ranma is not a jerk, Akane is not a bitch,
Ranma IS a jerk and Akane IS a bitch. That doesn't mean they're ireedemably unlikable.
The only thing in the Yusuke vs Sensui fight that was an Ass Pull was Shinobu's sacred energy. Other stuff like Sensui's multiple personalities and Koenma's mafugin were foreshadowed beforehand. Past Yusuke's death (when the SDF showed up) was the Jump the Shark moment to me, though the end of the conflict with Sensui was still pretty awesome.
edited 19th Oct '10 4:27:41 PM by ManwiththePlan
My problem with Light is precisely that Humans Are Bastards; dude himself was human, and at the rate he was Jumping Off the Slippery Slope, I think he would have eventually made the Khmer Rouge, Stalin, and Hitler look like Gandhi; even smart people fall to stupid ideologies with surprising frequency, and power is corrupting, after all. There could theoretically be a virtuous vigilante figure that we could have trusted the Death Note to, but Light was not that person.
I disagree, because the WHOLE POINT of Code Geass is to have a Magnificent Bastard you can root for. One of R2's greatest flaws is dumbing down Britannia's dog-shooting and racism, in addition to Lelouch Jumping Off the Slippery Slope. Also, in this case the comparison to Death Note doesn't work because the whole point of the work is to have a Complete Monster who we love to hate as the Villain Protagonist.
I disagree, because the WHOLE POINT of Code Geass is to have a Magnificent Bastard you can root for. One of R2's greatest flaws is dumbing down Britannia's dog-shooting and racism, in addition to Lelouch Jumping Off The Slippery Slope.
Yes, Lelouch is the one we're supposed to root for. That doesn't mean an entire empire of people that stand against him should be portrayed as mostly made up of evil dog-shooting racist Complete Monsters. That makes it much easier for fans to justify every single thing Lelouch does in his acts against them, no matter how psychotic, flawed, or disasterous, as long as it's "for the greater good".
If a borderline villaionus protagonist like Lelouch is purely in the right while all who oppose him are always wrong, like the fans make it out to be, that's just bad writing.
edited 19th Oct '10 4:10:40 PM by ManwiththePlan
That was the intent. Doesn't mean it was handled very well. Again, many in the Misaimed Fandom saw Lelouch as pure good for aiding the Japanese and fighting against the eeevil Britannia, while they see Suzaku as pure evil for siding with Britannia, the nation that opresses his own race, and opposing Lelouch at every turn.
edited 19th Oct '10 4:29:34 PM by ManwiththePlan
I'd argue there have been whole empires comprised of racist and cruel Complete Monsters to those they opressed in Real Life too (as centuries of slavery and genocide have sadly taught us). So no, I don't see anything TOO wrong with making the Britannians to be mostly dog-kicking bastards. Especially considering most of them we saw were the hardened ones at charge of the political and military positions.
I'm pretty sure the real idea behind Code Geass was actually: "Char Clones always end up being more popular than the hero, let's make one the main character! ALSO: Memory loss, and lots of it!"
I actually thing it would've been more interesting if it had stuck with that, actually. Switch Lelouch and Suzaku's place. Now we have a Magnificent Bastard protagonist who works for a fairly evil faction but is trying to improve it (probably in a more...direct...manner than Suzaku did) versus a more traditional hero who fights for his people, for no real reason beyond that they are his people.
This would make it a more direct Perspective Flip of Mobile Suit Gundam (which is a plus in my books) but it also makes the Grey-and-Gray Morality more interesting by putting the antagonist on the side that is — seemingly — A Lighter Shade of Grey.
edited 19th Oct '10 4:26:48 PM by Nyktos
I guess it is.That wasn't the only thing. They also had Yusuke only capable of firing his Spirit Gun once, a limitation he hasn't had since before the Dark Tournament, as well as the direct statement that Yusuke is very powerful physically, but spiritually weak, a direct inversion of what Genkai did for him. Neither of these two are ever explained and only serve to make Yusuke too weak to win.
The entire Mazaku element came out of nowhere and didn't seem to serve any purpose beyond allowing Yusuke to go SSJ, crossing the same "Now this gets stupid" line that DBZ did by dropping the point of clever and unique powers in favor of Super Powering Up to match Sensui's Super Powerup. It's also incredibly contrived and convenient that Koenma's Spirit Detective just happens to be a Mazaku, which we find out just when he needs it.
Sensui's split personalities could have been interesting, but were used to ridiculous effect. Especially the part where, by using all seven of them at once, he was able to master his Ass Pull new energy in 1/7th the time. Multiple Personality Disorder doesn't work that way.
Like I said, I really liked Sensui until Yusuke started fighting him, but it just became a random jumble after that.
edited 19th Oct '10 4:36:09 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Sensui's split personalities could have been interesting, but were used to ridiculous effect. Especially the part where, by using all seven of them at once, he was able to master his Ass Pull new energy in 1/7th the time. Multiple Personality Disorder doesn't work that way.
That's what I meant when I mentioned Shiobu's sacred energy.
But I still liked Sensui even when Yusuke fought him. The psychological layers he showed there just made him all the more interesting.
edited 19th Oct '10 4:48:09 PM by ManwiththePlan
Regarding the Code Geass talk, I think that I have to say this: Code Geass, for the people it worked for, worked entirely because it was an over-the-top melodrama. A "fabulous trainwreck" as it has been said. Subtlety would have propelled Code Geass from being a campy good time to being a mediocre and forgettable giant robot anime.
Moustache-twirlingly evil villains were necessary to make Lelouch acceptable as a protagonist, but also to keep things getting ever more fabulous. Subtle, sympathetic villains can't pose in the street and shout at the top of their lungs about humanity wanting to be enslaved. I approve of this sort of ridiculousness, so long as the voice actors are willing to hold nothing back. That kind of scenario paired with Norio Wakamoto—you really can't screw that up.
I think Code Geass's weaknesses and its strengths are one and the same.
edited 19th Oct '10 4:54:01 PM by Shadowtext
^ Oh, I wouldn't have Emperor Charles any other way. I just think Brittanians should've showed more to them than just being melodramatic dog-kickers. I mean, Cornelia, Villetta, and Jeremiah were portrayed as completely cruel racists at first and ALL of them live and get happy endings in the end. To many people, it may seem undeserved due to their previous actions.
Also, I think there's a line between melodrama and Wall Banger. Starting with the Euphinator, Code Geass crossed that line on a number of occasions.
edited 19th Oct '10 5:01:59 PM by ManwiththePlan
You're contradicting yourself. By definition, the villains have to be worse than The Hero, which DOES mean that you're basically in Moral Event Horizon, if not Complete Monster territory, if your hero is a Magnificent Bastard Anti-Hero. Granted, this doesn't mean that EVERYONE in Britannia had to be bad (ex. Euphemia & Suzaku), nor does it mean that the Anti-Hero can't be flawed, in fact, anti-heroes are flawed by definition, and Lelouch's flaws are what makes him the interesting character he is, and there's a reason he calls himself a DEMON. I understand where you're coming from, but if the fans make Lelouch a Draco in Leather Pants who can do no wrong, that's the fans' fault, not the writers'.
edited 19th Oct '10 5:35:04 PM by shiro_okami
Err… no. I'm not taking a side either way in this debate, but this is simply untrue. It's totally possible to have the primary conflict be between an Anti-Hero and an Anti-Villain. It's totally possible to prevent your hero from having the clear moral high ground. It's totally possible to lack the moral high ground against a Magnificent Bastard without crossing the Moral Event Horizon. And it's totally possible to combine all three of these things.
edited 19th Oct '10 6:01:33 PM by Gilphon
The Anti-Villain spot WAS filled by Suzaku. And if The Hero doesn't have moral high ground it's sort of hard to root for him. So it's more like two out of three.
edited 19th Oct '10 5:58:11 PM by shiro_okami

Plus analyzing his mindset helps me understand fundamentalists in Real Life better, so I have the knowhow to defeat them.
edited 19th Oct '10 1:38:43 PM by SirPsychoSexy
Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell's afraid I'll take over.