Renaming?: Mortons Fork

I feel that Morton's Fork is a very obscure name, and it was difficult to identify even when I WAS looking for it. Perhaps a rename is in order?

It's a preexisting term.

There is no rule (policy, guideline, unofficial inclination, whatever) that says trope names should describe what the trope is about without referencing anything but an English dictionary. There is a general tendency away from trope names that imply something else, though, or are work-specific. "Morton's Fork" is kind of like a Xanatos Gambit (haha, another one of these!) except instead of you setting it up so any outcome is good for you, someone else sets it up so any outcome is bad for you. Didn't know that? Now you do!

PS: "catch 22" means about the same thing, but there are more people who are wrong about what that means than there are people who don't know what Morton's Fork means... specifically, in the book, the "trope namer" is that if a military doctor diagnoses a fighter pilot as insane he is grounded, but requesting such an evaluation is a rational response to danger and therefore an indication of sanity... so nobody is grounded on that basis... which is "bad" for the main character who really wants to be grounded, and ironic because another character that is truly insane keeps flying missions.

edited 5th Nov '10 4:47:34 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Morton's Fork found in: 54 articles, excluding discussions.

This title has brought 221 people to the wiki from non-search engine links since 20th FEB '09.

Decent use. It definitely needs some good redirects.

If you think it needs a clearer redirect, propose one. But the name Morton's Fork goes back to 1504 — it's been in use to describe that type of situation for 500 years.

You Lose Either Way might work as a redirect.

edited 5th Nov '10 4:45:32 PM by Madrugada

Heads I Win, Tails You Lose is a phrase I've heard a lot. Would that fit?

Aw crud, that's a videogame-specific thing.

edited 6th Nov '10 9:07:29 AM by MetaFour

Let's find all of the tropes we have that are almost exactly the same thing here. I have a feeling that we have a bunch that are The Same But More Specific.

possibly because this name is a bit obscure? just saying...

Heads I Win, Tails You Lose found in: 79 articles, excluding discussions.

This title has brought 3,400 people to the wiki from non-search engine links since 20th FEB '09.

This name is pre-existing. It is what you call this sort of thing. We haven't decided that, the wider world has.

Heads I Win, Tails You Lose probably has a bigger referral count because the trope namer is The Grand List Of Console RPG Cliches. We can't do a lot about the relative exposure to the world of the two terms.

edited 6th Nov '10 6:22:03 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

Being a preexisting title doesn't make it catchy. I'm okay with a merge with Heads I Win, Tails You Lose or whatever.

It doesn't make it "catchy" but it does make it "accurate" which I'd say is more important here.

Oh, and the super trope here appears to be Sadistic Choice, which appears to be just our name for Morton's Fork. The two concepts are completely identical, so since I'm willing to bet that the former is the more established, the latter could be merged into and made a redirect to it.

edited 6th Nov '10 6:40:14 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

Well, the problem with simply merging Heads I Win, Tails You Lose with Morton's Fork is that Mortons Fork is when the dilemma with no correct answer appears as a narrative element in the story itself: Sir Tropesalot must answer a riddle. The punishment for answering incorrectly is death. If he answers correctly, then it's evidence that he cheated, and the punishment for cheating is death.

While Heads I Win, Tails You Lose is when Morton's Fork is used as a game mechanic: If you lose the boss fight with Baron von Murder, then Game Over, press R to retry. But if you win the boss fight, then in the cutscene immediately afterward, Baron von Murder gets back up and wipes the floor with you. Because you losing to him was an important plot point.

If Heads I Win, Tails You Lose should be merged with anything, I think it's closer to The Battle Didn't Count.

edited 6th Nov '10 6:43:42 PM by MetaFour

And a Sadistic Choice includes lots of things that aren't a Morton's Fork. Making the hero save either his girlfriend or his loyal kid sidekick but not both of them is a Sadistic Choice that isn't a Morton's fork, because the outcomes are different — both unpleasant for him, but different.

Heads I Win Tails You Lose probably has a bigger referral count because the trope namer is The Grand List Of Console RPG Cliches.

Whaaaaaaattttttt?!?

It....I wha....the....buh.

(For reference: Heads I Win, Tails You Lose is Older Than Radio by a good margin.)

edited 7th Nov '10 4:06:18 PM by Shale

Also they are not the same thing. Heads I Win, Tails You Lose means either outcome is bad for the same reason. Morton's Fork means either outcome is bad for different reasons. Splitting hairs? No, not at all, that's big.

"Because it came up heads" and "Because it came up tails" are different reasons, both with the same outcome "You lose and I win". So yeah, it fits Morton's Fork pretty well.

No, the outcome of the coin flip is not the same as the outcome decided by the coin flip. In Heads I Win, Tails You Lose, you lose whether the coin lands on heads or tails. In Morton's Fork, either way you lose, but if the coin lands on heads you lose X and if the coin lands on tails you lose Y (which are probably related/similar, like death by hanging vs death by beheading, for irony/humor purposes).

edited 7th Nov '10 5:02:23 PM by rodneyAnonymous

That doesn't make sense to me.

Take the example in the Morton's Fork quote. If you get the question wrong, you die. If you get the question right, you die. Heads you lose, tails you lose. What's the difference?

Heads I Win, Tails You Lose: The winner lives and the loser dies. If the coin lands on heads, I win (and you lose). If the coin lands on tails, I win (and you lose). The "coin flip" potentially has different outcomes, but any coin-flip outcome indicates the same result. You lose no matter what, because both outcomes result in the same kind of loss.

Morton's Fork: If you lose, you die because that is the penalty for losing. If you win, you die because you have just fulfilled a different set of conditions for which the penalty is death. You lose no matter what, because each outcome results in a different kind of loss.

edited 7th Nov '10 5:10:29 PM by rodneyAnonymous

I guess if Morton's Fork requires that it be presented as a choice, then the outcome of a coin flip isn't really a choice.

From The Other Wiki: "A Morton's Fork is a choice between two equally unpleasant alternatives (in other words, a dilemma), or two lines of reasoning that lead to the same unpleasant conclusion. It is analogous to the expressions "between the devil and the deep blue sea," "between a rock and a hard place," or, as those in the Spanish-speaking world say, "Between a sword and the wall." This is the opposite of the Buridan's Ass."

Between a Rock and a Hard Place? Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea?

Between a Rock and a Hard Place might be a good redirect, but it implies a natural situation or one of your own making, whereas Morton's Fork implies the situation is constructed by someone else.

Also, "choice" (vs coin flip) is not really key, except maybe Heads I Win... can look like a choice when really it's not. Yes, Heads I Win, Tails You Lose is a particular kind of (less interesting imo) Morton's Fork. That adds confusion.

There is only one catch, and that is Catch 22.

edited 7th Nov '10 5:22:55 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Lose Or Also Lose?

Added Between a Rock and a Hard Place as a redirect.

By the way, what about a Lose Lose Situation?