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description and requirements need to be rework: Hartman Hips

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captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#1: Dec 20th 2010 at 9:10:31 AM

The description throws out phrases like "the designer wants" and "the character is meant to be", yet their no Word of God to back any of the claims up, making the description sound really presumptuous.

Also the requirements for a character to fit this trope.

  • The character is meant to look mature but is in the Animation Age Ghetto where big breasts won't get past the censors.
  • The character is not meant to be objectified but the designer wants to make sure that she's seen as mature both mentally and physically.
  • Hips are the main clue that the character is in fact female.

Again some really presumptuous phrasing but also a lot of the examples (fanservicy characters with large breasts) in the page don't fit these. Probably because this trope was meant to highlight a trend in western animation aimed at kids

edited 20th Dec '10 9:23:12 AM by captainpat

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#2: Dec 20th 2010 at 11:05:44 AM

Having a thing for shapely hips and using them for fanservice is different from using it as a shorthand for attractive.

Fight smart, not fair.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Dec 28th 2010 at 11:15:28 AM

^^ That's because the point isn't Word of God, the point is the character's figure. The "developer wants" bits are just speculations as to why they have it's there.

TriggerLoaded from Canada, eh? (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4: Dec 28th 2010 at 6:42:46 PM

Seems the description is a bit confused. Perhaps we should simplify it a little. Or, as mentioned, remove the "It's what the designers intended."

As you mention, how can we tell if it was meant as a visual shorthand, and not for fanservice? Especially considering that even if not intentional, people are likely going to find the characters attractive anyways?

Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#5: Dec 28th 2010 at 8:02:12 PM

how can we tell if it was meant as a visual shorthand, and not for fanservice

Doesn't matter. If it's either or neither, it's still an example of the trope.

TriggerLoaded from Canada, eh? (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#6: Dec 28th 2010 at 8:54:43 PM

[up] Agreed.

I'm thinking the trope still needs to be a bit more than "Women in animation have wide hips," though. Should it be limited to more mature women? Or is it simply the use of wide hips to show a womanly figure, especially in more stylized works?

Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.
captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#7: Dec 29th 2010 at 7:09:11 PM

If the point of this trope is the character's figure then the description should concentrate on that instead of getting getting side-track as to why a certain trope is used.

Reading the trope description and examples I can't decide whether this is suppose to be Big Hip as Fanservice, big hips as Getting Crap Past the Radar, or visual shorthand for female character. The only simalirity is wide hips and wide hips are not a trope. So trope description has to pick one, or all, but it's has to be made clear in description what this trope is.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#8: Dec 29th 2010 at 7:12:11 PM

I Thought It Meant using wide hips as shorthand for "maternal" or "mature".

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
TriggerLoaded from Canada, eh? (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#9: Dec 29th 2010 at 7:27:50 PM

^Probably the best choice for a definition. At least that's what I'd say we should go for.

Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.
Haldo Indecisive pumpkin from Never never land Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Indecisive pumpkin
#10: Jan 2nd 2011 at 7:24:45 PM

May I suggest some alternate wordings for the requirements:

  • The hips indicate physical maturity in an Animation Age Ghetto where big breasts wouldn't make it past the censors.
  • The hips are a visual shorthand for mental maturity.
  • The hips are the main clue that the character is female.

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.
McJeff McJeff from probably sitting at a computer Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#11: Jan 3rd 2011 at 10:42:53 PM

Somebody also needs to make it clear that this trope is not "Attractive women with large hips", and that in fact Ms. Fanservice types by definition cannot have Hartman Hips.

Russell... likes to hurt people... for PEACE.
azul120 Since: Jan, 2001
#12: Jan 7th 2011 at 2:51:20 PM

Sometimes wide hips are seen as curvy and voluptuous, and are also part of the hourglass figure. From that standpoint they can be fanservice.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#13: Jan 7th 2011 at 2:56:23 PM

They can be from that standpoint, but then they aren't this trope. They're a trope that we don't have at the moment that is distinct from this one and used for a different purpose. This is not a fanservice trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#15: Jan 7th 2011 at 3:40:15 PM

^^ It's not? I'm pretty sure I wrote it as one. Or at least one where fanservice could be an easily logical consequence.

edited 7th Jan '11 3:40:40 PM by KnownUnknown

helterskelter Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#16: Jan 7th 2011 at 3:57:58 PM

So, to be sure, we're talking about pear shaped women?

StarryEyed Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: If you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
#17: Jan 7th 2011 at 9:05:26 PM

Why can't it be Fanservice? I thought one of the prime examples was Livewire from Superman The Animated Series, and she was definitely designed to be fanservice-y. It's just, because of censorship, this was done through giving her exaggerated hips instead of the Most Common Superpower.

DRCEQ Since: Oct, 2009
#18: Jan 7th 2011 at 9:22:48 PM

The trope isn't designed for fanservice, but that doesn't mean the characters who have Hartman Hips can't be recognized for their fanservice.

captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#19: Jan 18th 2011 at 3:06:53 PM

That livewire example doesn't work. Again saying that said character was given exaggerated hips instead of large breasts because of censorship, implies that you have knowledge of the creative process that lead to the final character design of that character. Note that Livewire was created by Bruce timm, and if you've seen most of his art he rarely gives is female characters large breasts.

This trope isn't a fanservice trope. There's nothing inherently sexually about small hips and wide torso. While they're usually considered desirable traits, they're still just traits.

From my perspective, the point this trope is trying to get across is that female characters or physical mature female characters are often drawn with average bustlines, a small torsos and wide hips. These feature often distinguish them from male character and/or other younger female characters.

Anyway I think this trope has more to do the identifying a character gender in an animated or drawn series.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#20: Jan 18th 2011 at 5:46:32 PM

Again saying that said character was given exaggerated hips instead of large breasts because of censorship

No, it says possibly because of censorship. The "apparently" there is to note that it's not a definite note on the meaning of the trope as much as a musing. All the stuff about reasons why is musings, really, as the reasons why aren't the point of this trope. Again, I should know. I wrote it.

I think you're reading too much into things. Looking at the trope, I saw a main reason for that could be that "it is only an example of this trope if" list, which is mostly if not completely inaccurate. I have since removed it.

edited 18th Jan '11 5:52:13 PM by KnownUnknown

TibetanFox Feels Good, Man from Death Continent Since: Oct, 2010
Feels Good, Man
#21: Jan 19th 2011 at 4:33:42 AM

If we're splitting the trope, we could break off Big Hips as Fanservice / Getting Crap Past the Radar to Dem Hips.

edited 19th Jan '11 4:34:08 AM by TibetanFox

captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#22: Jan 19th 2011 at 6:24:47 AM

I'm not really sure I'm understanding the point you're trying to get across. What exactly is the basic definition of this trope?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#23: Jan 19th 2011 at 1:24:40 PM

From the trope page:

This animated woman will usually have an average bustline (though hourglasses are not unheard of), but a very narrow waist and very large hips. She may seem to have Gag Hips instead of Gag Boobs, especially if there aren't many other characters like her. Extra points if she only looks that way if she's wearing skintight clothes, such as tight jeans or a catsuit.

That's the point. Everything else is just extra.

captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#24: Jan 24th 2011 at 4:02:00 PM

So if I'm understanding things correctly this trope has to do with female character's who are drawn with small torsos and wide hips to an exaggeration degree.....I guess.

Well either way if the portion you're highlighting is what to point of this trope, then the description needs to rewritten in a way where that's on the first paragraph instead of in the middle of the description. All of the extra information on the description is speculation, so there's no reason why that should come before getting the point of the trope across.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#25: Jan 25th 2011 at 3:30:46 PM

Actually, it's filler text / lead-in. Non-committal, mostly there for constructing the article.

edited 25th Jan '11 3:30:56 PM by KnownUnknown

PageAction: HartmanHips
20th Apr '10 12:00:00 AM

Crown Description:

Options may not necessarily be mutually exclusive.

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