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Lessinath from In the wilderness. Since: Nov, 2010
#1: Nov 15th 2010 at 1:41:17 AM

This is an interesting idea I had. I'm sure I'm not the only one to think of it, so bear with me...

In this world, you have Humans - but everyone hates them and Dwarves who use true technology, like we've got. While they have electronics, the intense magical flux in and around the planet* keep anything that isn't shielded from working - loose magic can induce voltages just like a magnetic field. Also, the humans have lots of nukes.

  • planet is technically the wrong word - it's actually a moon, orbiting a gas giant, which itself is orbiting a binary star. But we're calling it a planet. Ok?

Beyond that, you have Elves. Of course, what would it be without Elves? But they're different. They use just flat out magitech, and it's on par with what the humans have.

Oh, and tanks. So yes, you just got rolled by a bunch of whiny, annoying pointy-eared bastards in tanks.

And then you have your evil Elves. I'm not sure what to call them - they're definitely not dark elves, although they're quite similar. I'll think of something. "Dark Elves" hate you. They want to cut your heart out and replace it with a grenade.

They enjoy it too, and have become quite good at it. For the lulz. They almost entirely use magic - the only technology they have is stuff they've stolen. The only good side is that it's fairly easy beat them if you can get them into a pitched battle - but good luck with that.

(where's this going?)

Well, without giving away TOO much, part of the plot is that the "dark elves" (for lack of a better name) steal around 70 high-yield (5Mt+ nukes from the humans. Obviously, this is obviously very bad. They're probably planning to do something evil with them.

The humans, however, blame the "good" elves for this. This kind of does in the tense peace that existed there.

The good news is, the elves are much better at fighting wars. The bad news is, the humans outnumber them 10 to 1... at best.

Oh, you remember those nukes I mentioned? Yeah..

The ever important questions:

1. First, and foremost, does this sound like something that would be interesting to you? If not, could you please explain why?

2. If you pick up and read this with no prior knowledge at all, how would you react to the usage of WMD's by Elves (who typically wouldn't even touch them, much less use them)? It's definitely not Tolkien, but I wonder if it takes it a step too far away from that.

3. So, there's nukes. Now, I want to do it accurately (as much as the plot allows, considering the magic aspect of it). I'm concerned that showing the effects realistically would be taken as being highly unrealistic, or can you not see this as an issue.

4. Considering the above question, would nuclear weapons in a work that otherwise falls very solidly into the Fantasy genre ruin your enjoyment of it?

5. Dark Elven sky pirates. Too much?

edited 30th Nov '10 6:38:09 PM by Lessinath

"This thread has gone so far south it's surrounded by nesting penguins. " — Madrugada
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#2: Nov 15th 2010 at 5:01:45 AM

Interesting - you seem to be viewing the elves as the good guys in this conflict, and the humans as the bad guys?

Be not afraid...
Lessinath from In the wilderness. Since: Nov, 2010
#3: Nov 15th 2010 at 7:10:06 AM

Not entirely. There are multiple human nations, and while 3 of them are most certainly evil the others are more neutral and one is flat out good.

"This thread has gone so far south it's surrounded by nesting penguins. " — Madrugada
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#4: Nov 15th 2010 at 4:20:51 PM

So which nation is it that the nukes were stolen from?

Be not afraid...
Lessinath from In the wilderness. Since: Nov, 2010
#5: Nov 15th 2010 at 5:32:05 PM

One of the evil ones had them stolen. "Evil" however, makes it seem more cut-and-dry then it is. It's not really that clear - except one nation, who would make Himmler shake in his boots.

It's not black-and-gray, but it's certainly not black-and-white. While the "good guys" aren't nice by any stretch of the imagination (see above: you just got rolled by elves with tanks ). Unfortunately, unlike the elven cities, the tanks do not float.

This is helped by the fact that the world is full to the brim with Eldritch Locations - like a 45,000 ft. mountain (yes, that's right, over 50% taller than Everest) that drops to the sea in a half mile of shear cliffs, or the volcano that has been erupting for a constant 700 years now, with Unfortunate Implications for the surrounding region (you think Mordor was bad? That, turned up past 11 to 12). See: Lava floods. In this world, things that are too nice or aren't quickly adaptable die off very quickly.

Also, sorry about being slow about updating, there's this highly evil thing called work. And sleep.

edited 15th Nov '10 5:32:39 PM by Lessinath

"This thread has gone so far south it's surrounded by nesting penguins. " — Madrugada
Lessinath from In the wilderness. Since: Nov, 2010
#6: Nov 16th 2010 at 8:43:20 PM

If you're reading this, I think you've got the general idea of what goes on. However, I have a few specific questions. These are largely opinion based, so YMMV. Also, if you care about that, this may give away portions of the plot.

Is killing a character with artillery where they don't even realize they were hit (as in, blown to pieces) a bit too cheap? The reader sees this from the POV of a different, nearby character.

In a possible case of reality is unrealistic, is having a character die of radiation sickness also too harsh? Consider that they get exposed to the high-level fallout from the mushroom cloud less than 30 minutes after a nuclear detonation. I also did research what radiation sickness would do to you, and I almost wish I hadn't - it is far worse than I had imagined. It's not nice.

In attempting to make as much of this realistic as possible (without sacrificing the story, of course), one character who gets his gut sliced open has them spill out and leak, described in moderate detail (from their point of view, no less), however, I'm wondering if this is, again, perhaps a bit too much.

The Big Bad, as so far planned, doesn't die at the end but is instead sucked into another plane of existence (where he couldn't possibly survive long, right?). Too anti-climactic? Consider he doesn't jus enter, a big clawed hand reaches out, grabs him, and drags him in... and then reaches back in the room for more. For the record, he really does die. Painfully. Perhaps I should describe this from his Po V to make this clear and not just another no one could survive that?

A 1500ft. sky battleship with x30 20-inch guns, several dozen 10-inch guns and and over a hundred 6-inch guns. It's targeted (and hit) with a tactical nuclear warhead. It survives, due to an experimental energy shield. CMOA or too far fetched? Or take a third option?

Apocalypse how : 2, nearly 3A, and some localized regions are damaged up to 6 - where not even bacteria survive in those regions. This allows the elves to go from being relatively oppressed to being the dominant race, as they survive relatively unscathed. They only loose two thirds of their population. Some of the good guys are humans, so my question is, would a non-human race doing well, and humans getting the shaft and nearly being wiped out spoil any of it(even if parts of both races are good)?

In short though, things go to hell, kick the door open, storm inside and come back out the other side dripping with blood and missing an arm but still smiling. And then it gets better, sort of - large tracks of land are still smoking craters, charred wasteland and alive with radioactivity, but at least the bad guys are gone. They hope.

edited 16th Nov '10 8:44:16 PM by Lessinath

"This thread has gone so far south it's surrounded by nesting penguins. " — Madrugada
Slan Since: Nov, 2010
#7: Nov 18th 2010 at 6:18:00 PM

What sort of feedback do you want? Your first post is just a brainstorm of connected ideas.

Lessinath from In the wilderness. Since: Nov, 2010
#8: Nov 30th 2010 at 6:38:49 PM

What sort of feedback do you want? Your first post is just a brainstorm of connected ideas.

Sorry, situations at work decided I wasn't going to do this post justice for me, and I apologize. So I've left it until I had more time (now). I've added that to the first post to make it more clear, and I'll post them here too.

1. First, and foremost, does this sound like something that would be interesting to you? If not, could you please explain why?

2. If you pick up and read this with no prior knowledge at all, how would you react to the usage of WMD's by Elves (who typically wouldn't even touch them, much less use them)? It's definitely not Tolkien, but I wonder if it takes it a step too far away from that.

3. So, there's nukes. Now, I want to do it accurately (as much as the plot allows, considering the magic aspect of it). I'm concerned that showing the effects realistically would be taken as being highly unrealistic, or can you not see this as an issue.

4. Considering the above question, would nuclear weapons in a work that otherwise falls very solidly into the Fantasy genre ruin your enjoyment of it?

5. Dark Elven sky pirates. Too much?

"This thread has gone so far south it's surrounded by nesting penguins. " — Madrugada
colbertimposter Since: Dec, 1969
#9: Dec 1st 2010 at 8:28:24 PM

I know I'm not answering exactly what you asked, but here are my suggestions based on your ideas so far. Try not to take this too harshly. They're just suggestions, and what you have here is still in the brainstorming stage:

1) Don't play down the horror and destruction of anything, especially if you're writing drama. It's only dramatic if the reader thinks a sad ending is possible, and the reader will only think a sad ending is possible if you show an intensity of pain and death usually absent from fictional entertainment. This is just what I've learned from my own writing experiences. My dramas improved tenfold once I focused entirely on messages of Depressive Realism in them.

2) Consider giving a cosmetic change to either the Tolkein stuff (elves, dwarves, magic) or the modern warfare stuff (tanks, bombs). I say this because, in the U.S., the people who like the Tolkein stuff will probably be turned off by the modern warfare stuff and vice versa. Because this is a business-related suggestion, I completely understand if you don't change your vision (I probably wouldn't, to be honest). If you want a modern-day message to emerge from your work, you can still do it so long as you have characters speak of Ultimate Destruction Magic like people speak of WM Ds today or change the Tolkein species to "race." Also, the mix of magic and modern is something people often like (Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy 10, the Star Oceans - yes I love video games), so I think you can still do this while adhering to business wants. It's just that, for a lot of young punks (who won't get off my lawn no matter how many times I yell at them lol), the words "Elves" and "Dwarves" in particular cause them to stop considering purchase instantly.

3) Keep the scope small. You already have a lot to cover with three species, so I think making a lot of nations within each of those species might make finishing the work too much of a hurdle.

Nonetheless, what you have here sounds like it could make a great story. I also love the possible twist that the Dark Elves took the WM Ds to stop destruction instead of cause it. This could result in a great story where the reader doesn't know who the real villain is until the end, and I think mystery is the most popular genre of novel (not certain about this).

Oh, personally, the mix of Tolkein and modern warfare doesn't bug me any. I'm mostly saying this about what I perceived from my ol' highschool pals.

edited 1st Dec '10 8:29:55 PM by colbertimposter

SandJosieph Since: Dec, 2009
#10: Dec 1st 2010 at 9:19:24 PM

I've also had an idea of having magic + modern technology in my story, although in this case it allows for powerless MP 3 players, laptops, and reliable Yo-Yo's. Also, dragons take the place of helicopters allowing for news dragons being a regular fixture on the TV. And yes, even the military uses magic with it's hover tanks, force fields, and self-tracking smart bullets.

Lessinath from In the wilderness. Since: Nov, 2010
#11: Dec 1st 2010 at 11:03:06 PM

Colbert, I think you bring up some good points there. (Also, don't worry, I wouldn't have posted this on an open forum if I wasn't ready to take whatever was coming.)

I like your idea behind not playing anything down. This is what I had considered myself, but am not sure what a lot of other people think.

Also, that's a quite good note with the cosmetic changes. I'd been tempted to turn the level of magic up (I.E. Give the humans at least basic magic) and/or turn down the technology. (No human kill sats? But that spoils half the fun!)

But I wouldn't have to do it much. In fact, the elves still have four entire divisions that specialize in melee combat - they're given heavily enchanted, near bullet-immune, armor. It makes more sense in context. As for the tanks? They can handle those without needing their tanks, and no, you do not have to give up your socks. Truthfully, what you would see if you missed several key details, such as the mention of the three Elvish armor divisions, and one instance of a character taking cover behind an elvish tank (NOTE: That's a REALLY BAD IDEA, don't take cover behind tanks) you'd observe most of the good guys not having much technology at all, fighting forces with it. In fact, the Elves have more troops in their melee forces than they do in their armor divisions, including logistics.

Without recognizable modern things, like advanced electronics or even radios, it's turning out to look more like steampunk than the modern technology it is — giant, steam-powered mechanical computers* the size of a house, each**, in one of the cities, for example. Most lighting is even done with gas lamps and candles, because of the simple fact that in this world, magic screws with electricity in new an interesting ways. (such as, you can have your 120v line have a sudden spike up to 10kv for a few seconds as the local magic flux switches polarity, which happens every few days - oh, and your Iphone in your pocket? Forget about it, it's dead.)

  • These are high-speed, precision machines that make advanced calculations quickly - they've got power compared to a late-1990's PC, admittedly without any graphical display of any kind. In fact, you need years of training to even read the output effectively(as the output and input is in raw, 16-bit binary).

    • And to top it off, they have dozens of them lined up in several rows.

The scope isn't small, but I've never planned for it to be small - or one book (if it was, it would freshly define Doorstopper). It will probably be three or four. Considering I'm nearly done with the first, I should be done... sometime in 2012.

Also, yes, with the dark elves not all is what it seems. Of course, I can't give THIS away too much - besides the fact that they're not "good" for sure, considering they DO start a nuclear war...

As I final note, you don't see much full-scale combat, besides one large naval battle, a pretty large battle in some karst mountains and a tank battle (surprisingly enough, a resounding victory for the Elves, even with technically inferior tanks - they just fight better with better tactics).

I wonder if I missed anything. lol.

edited 1st Dec '10 11:39:45 PM by Lessinath

"This thread has gone so far south it's surrounded by nesting penguins. " — Madrugada
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