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New Title: Sweet Polly Oliver

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amitraday Since: Jan, 2010
#1: Nov 4th 2010 at 8:53:12 PM

I think this really needs a new title. I've asked a few people, and like me, none of them got the reference.

So, title brainstorming time?

He is a She Miss Man Undercover Skirt Deceptive Pants

Even a Twelfth Night reference would probably be less confusing.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Nov 4th 2010 at 9:17:34 PM

Renaming is for broken titles. Showing evidence of misuse, in either the wicks or the examples will make your proposal much stronger.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#3: Nov 4th 2010 at 9:35:03 PM

Sweet Polly Oliver is a pre-existing term that has been used for this trope since 1840. We didn't make it up.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
amitraday Since: Jan, 2010
#4: Nov 4th 2010 at 10:26:41 PM

I didn't mean to suggest you made it up, only that it's no longer a relevant modern description that explains the trope.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'not broken.' A trope's title that doesn't properly explain what the trope is seems rather broken to me.

Gerkuman Hotel detective. from Sitting on a cornflake Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
Hotel detective.
#5: Nov 4th 2010 at 10:55:24 PM

There is no rule that says that every trope title has to be self-descriptive. These things only come up if the title isn't used anymore.

And, well, it has been used recently. People use the term on the internet, and Terry Pratchett used the term extensively in Monstrous Regiment. Thus, I think the name should stay, and I think that the consensus may agree with me on this.

Quote of the Week: 'I used to be indecisive, but now I'm unsure'
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Nov 4th 2010 at 10:58:53 PM

The name should stay. It is not only a pre-existing term, but shows no misuse.

DRCEQ Since: Oct, 2009
#7: Nov 5th 2010 at 12:54:00 AM

Even if the name has been around since 1840, there's no reason to not put in a redirect.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#8: Nov 5th 2010 at 7:20:25 AM

Redirects:yes. Definitely. I'd personally prefer an Exactly What It Says on the Tin redirect for any preexisting terms that have fallen out of the common vernacular.

The name isn't broken. Here's the number of wicks.

Main.Sweet Polly Oliver found in: 480 articles, excluding discussions.

This title has brought 927 people to the wiki from non-search engine links since 20th FEB '09.

So we know it's getting good use. If you would like to prove misuse, you'll have to comb through the wicks to find a decent percentage of misuse.

Fight smart, not fair.
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Nov 5th 2010 at 7:27:19 AM

Redirects Are Free

But no to a rename. It's a pre-existing term, and not being misused. Learn some of the pop culture osmosis from history instead of demanding all the old people learn a new term that isn't even in existence yet.

Lock Please

edited 5th Nov '10 7:27:56 AM by Sackett

ShadesWord Since: Oct, 2009
#10: Nov 5th 2010 at 1:45:08 PM

Does it not seem a little rude to call for a lock of a discussion when it's less than 12 hours old?

Edit: I know what Sweet Polly Oliver means (having learned on this site), but it still seems archaic and confusing.

edited 5th Nov '10 1:50:27 PM by ShadesWord

The past is all you see, the future all you touch.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#11: Nov 5th 2010 at 2:20:03 PM

Does anyone have any good redirects to add?

Fight smart, not fair.
DRCEQ Since: Oct, 2009
#12: Nov 5th 2010 at 2:29:19 PM

Huh.. I don't remember seeing He Is a She as a redirect since I looked on the page yesterday when this thread was made. I was going to suggest Hiding Her Feminimity or something like that.

edited 5th Nov '10 2:29:35 PM by DRCEQ

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#13: Nov 5th 2010 at 2:29:35 PM

[up][up][up] (and re: OP) There is no rule (policy, guideline, unofficial inclination, whatever) that says trope names should describe what the trope is about without referencing anything but an English dictionary. There is a general tendency away from trope names that imply something else, though, or are work-specific. "Sweet Polly Oliver" means a girl disguised as a boy to participate in some boys-only endeavor. Didn't know that? Now you do!

[up][up] Disguised as Male?

edited 5th Nov '10 2:41:12 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
FarseerLolotea from America's Finest City Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#14: Nov 5th 2010 at 7:46:54 PM

I added He Is a She as a redirect. While Sweet Polly Oliver is a perfectly good name for the trope, I thought that was a good alternative in that form.

Does anyone else think The Hua Mu Lan (the folklore heroine off of whom the title character of Mulan is based) would work as another?

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#15: Nov 5th 2010 at 8:43:26 PM

[up] No, that implies a far more specific trope of a female warrior.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#16: Nov 6th 2010 at 9:13:13 AM

Keep it. It's a pre-existing term, and even for someone who hadn't heard it before, like me, all you have to do is click and then it all makes sense.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#17: Nov 6th 2010 at 6:00:52 PM

Given that the name, the song, and the trope itself all feature prominently in a 2003 novel by one of the most popular British writers of the late 20th/early 21st century, I would argue that it has definitely not fallen out of the popular vernacular, though it may be better known in the UK than in the US. (But the US has a whole lot of Discworld fans too.)

edited 6th Nov '10 6:02:07 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
Daremo Misanthrope Supreme from Parts Unknown Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
#19: Nov 6th 2010 at 6:57:32 PM

Irrelevant. It's a 160 year old pre-established term still being used. Thinking we can do better than that would be fatal arrogance. Some redirects are already in place.

Edit: I've been corrected, It's 170 years old.

edited 6th Nov '10 7:21:56 PM by Daremo

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#20: Nov 6th 2010 at 8:28:58 PM

I'm not in favor of a rename. I'm saying it needed redirects to make it more searchable.

Fight smart, not fair.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#21: Nov 6th 2010 at 10:57:52 PM

Well, we aren't changing it and it has redirects. Can we lock it now?

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
savage Nice Hat from an underground bunker Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Nov 7th 2010 at 6:55:58 AM

Again, this is why we need to prove misuse before we go around renaming everything. Let's not 'fix' things that aren't broken just because you don't understand/like the title ok?

Want to rename a trope? Step one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#23: Nov 7th 2010 at 8:05:12 AM

This seems resolved. Redirects Are Free; the main title isn't changing any time soon.

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