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eX 94. Grandmaster of Shark Since: Jan, 2001
94. Grandmaster of Shark
#276: Jul 17th 2010 at 8:51:02 PM

Ok, here I am, back in business. Sorry that I didn't posted in a ling time, but I was generally fed-up with the forum and just avoided it altogether.

Since I volunteered for graphics (Idiot that I am), here are two problems with it: There are no orcs and there are no romans or legionaries. Means, instead of honoring the old RPG Maker Tradition of using the material I find around the Internet and modify it a little where needed, I have to create all orc soldiers and a lot of characters from the scratch. Ok, still manageable, if time intensive. But I am not nearly as experienced as some other people around the Internet, so I fear that all my creation might look inferior to whatever we might use for everything else.

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#277: Jul 18th 2010 at 2:19:55 AM

...I could help you find some orcs.

Or at least some suitably green humans.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#278: Jul 24th 2010 at 8:11:02 AM

Hi. I like (and want to support) your project, but really don't have much experience in anything but writing. I do have some suggestions and feedback on the plot, character designs, and combat system, but I'm not sure if it'd be presumptuous of me to come in this late in the game and start throwing around ideas.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#279: Jul 24th 2010 at 9:12:39 AM

Go ahead; we need more people in here anyways.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#280: Jul 24th 2010 at 10:48:45 AM

Story Design: I recognize a few elements that remain constant throughout the different suggested formulations of the story, and a few potential problems.

  • There's this idea that the interracial war is wrong and the leaders of the races would try to exploit something that threatens the entire world for short term military gain. This is a valuable story element and something we should keep in some form whatever the final story should be; even if it's just extending the last arc of the game by having the existing powers interfere with your quest in the hopes that the Big Bad will destroy a rival while you are delayed. We're allowed to have subplots. There's got to be a reason the heroes' governments aren't supporting them through this endeavour.
  • I'd like to flesh out the interaction between the orcs and the ECN more. Let's try some backstory; the ECN empire that ruled the whole world originally developed these terrible weapons in a bloody global war of their own. These weapons came with terrible curses (blighting the land, torments of undeath, etc. etc.) and the most responsible sages decided to seal up all the people with their terrible powers before giving the ancestors of the Orcs the key, with a directive to keep the world safe from themselves and to prevent mortal races from creating such terrible weaponry again. This eventually gets mythologized by the orcs into a contract with the gods (terms of the contract could have been altered over history to become a religious code of conduct, even). So when they are summoned, not only are the ECN driven mad by millennia spent with the curse that drove them to seal themselves up, but they come out to find that the people they made the deal with have explicitly failed their end of the contract - the world is once more at war. Not only that, but they have the gall to unseal them after failing to keep the contract and ask them for help with that very breach of contract. Little wonder they're so pissed and feel they should take over where they left off.
  • The concept of each race getting its own precursor superweapon implies that each race is special in a supernatural way. Perhaps a geomancy explanation would do, where each species is tied to their land (mountains, forests, whatever) and can draw power from that land in a way only they can do (and that the superweapon amplifies or exploits). It would mesh well with the ECN's forces having a Walking Wasteland effect as they drain the power from the land. It would also provide the opportunity for a mild environmental aesop if the land was weakened from the war - forests clearcut and mountains stripmined for resources, terrain damaged by bombardment and trench constructions, etc - and provide another instance of conflict of PC party vs the governments of the world.
  • If we're going with a "the government dupes everyone with a fake alliance" plot - and it doesn't seem like we are, but I'm not perfectly sure from rereading the thread, so I'm just covering bases here - we'd need an explanation for how the P Cs would not be in on it. Saying "the five peoples will combine their elite" doesn't sound plausible if you're a relatively inexperienced soldier (these are level 1 characters in the party?) being told suddenly that you're the elite for the job. Now I'm sure all the characters in the party have combat experience, but they will be asking "why not someone else?".

Character Design: A few recommendations.

  • Consider making the necromancer character a Cheerful Child. Someone cute, young, and friendly who can raise the dead will put players off (I wish this angle had been played with more in Seiken Densetsu 3 with Carly).
  • You may have a bit of difficulty distinguishing Fairies from Elves in your setting (you would not be the only setting creators with this problem, by far). Coming up with very major distinctions will be important, or I'd recommend replacing one of them entirely with another iconic fantasy species (both dwarves and merfolk can fit the High Men archetype in a pinch). You could make the Faeries distinctive by giving them the traits of satyrs (horns and hooves).
  • Might I suggest an insectoid appearance and Egyptian theme for the force beyond the Awesomegate? Egyptian is always a good appearance for The Precursors and it would allow us to give a mummies-and-scarabs motif to the ECN's forces. If you want a cool visual image, swarms of little insects invading dead bodies and bringing them to walk again and hunt the living is pretty good for an "oh shit it's the end of the world" scenario.
  • The heroine can have distinctive armour that she inherited from her family or a deceased comrade. It's an easy fix and it carries backstory opportunities.

Combat System: Ever consider yoinking the Tension system from Dragon Quest 8? You take a turn off to increase your Tension value, which boosts the effectiveness of anything you do: attack, heal, cast a spell, whatever. Your Tension resets to 0 at the end of any round in which you do anything besides increase your Tension (which means being incapacitated by effects like Sleep would waste your accumulated tension). It means that any move can become a Limit Break if you're willing to spend the turns boosting your Tension beforehand. It would also combine very well with Chrono Trigger style Dual Techs. Two characters take a turn or two to up their Tension, and then drop a devastating combination attack that makes bosses shudder.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Deathonabun Bunny from the bedroom Since: Jan, 2001
Bunny
#281: Jul 24th 2010 at 11:16:00 AM

If you want a cool visual image, swarms of little insects invading dead bodies and bringing them to walk again and hunt the living is pretty good for an "oh shit it's the end of the world" scenario.

I feel like the necromancer should have an instant kill attack specifically for these types of enemies. Raising the dead is her specialty after all, right?

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#282: Jul 24th 2010 at 5:26:42 PM

In order:

  • Absolutely we should be keeping that in; that is pretty much the entire point of the story.
  • Good idea; can I suggest this fleshing out: The Orcs were the first to discover the ECN, and adopted them as guardian spirits. With the great power this gave them, they were able to conquer pretty much the entire world and founded the Orc Empire, making many extremely dangerous magical artifacts with the ECN's help in the process. But eventually, the ECN had stuff to deal with back in their home world and let the Orcs manage their empire, which, without the power of the ECN backing them the other races eventually took back. (Except for the humans, who were all originally right near the orc homeland and who have never recaptured their original territory; the other races have all managed to take back land at least to their ancient capitals.) The nations left after they've taken back the land all now have quite good weaponry, and decided to use that on each other after taking back all their original land. So then the orcs, longing for the peace of their glory days, decide to contact the ECN again and ask for their help, whose immediate reaction is not so much "we must mediate between the warring nations" as it is "dudes, you lost your empire? That's a bummer, now we've gotta take it back."
  • That might work; good idea.
  • The idea I had originally was that each individual party member was in on their side's intention to betray the others and simply never guessed that everyone else would be betraying them. (Which means that the reason all of them start at level 1 is that they were all trained as diplomats or spies and have only the basic combat training required to get them to each others' continents.) I don't think we're still going with that, but who knows?

Character design:

  • Good idea, but we need to be careful not to turn her into a generic Staff Chick.
  • That's true; I think probably we should either move the elves a little more towards Keebler rather than Tolkien or else have the fairies be pretty tiny.
  • Also a good idea, but the idea I had for what it looks like when the ECN reanimate a corpse is like a spirit possessing the corpse.
  • Again, good idea.

Combat system: Hmmm... I kind of don't like that idea; it just seems like we'd be stacking too much on the battle system, and I also don't like the idea of "do-nothing" turns.

@Doa B: Yes, but the corpse raising ties into the whole "healing" thing; the idea is that if you can magically heal wounds, you ought to magically heal the brain enough to keep it working at least a little after it's dead. There wouldn't really be anything in her arsenal that would be able to hurt an ECN-possessed corpse any better than a normal human.

edited 24th Jul '10 5:34:21 PM by BlackHumor

Deathonabun Bunny from the bedroom Since: Jan, 2001
Bunny
#283: Jul 24th 2010 at 9:38:46 PM

^Not necessarily hurt, but can wrest control and get it to stop attacking the party. Essentially, she can expel parasites from a possessed corpse.

Perhaps maybe even earning a parting gift from the spirit that was troubled by it's body rising.

Oh, and are you saying that the ECN are all too willing to help the orcs and start taking over everyone? Because THAT is an awesome idea.

edited 24th Jul '10 9:41:18 PM by Deathonabun

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#284: Jul 25th 2010 at 4:36:28 AM

re: Deathonabun - what I had in mind was too much willingness on their part to come back and take on EVERYBODY, the orcs included. Thus my emphasis on resentment towards the orcs for breaking their original deal with the ECN. (That, plus the curse idea I was following would make it clear that these guys reshaping the world to their needs would not be a good thing.)

re: adding Tension to the combat system - it was mainly a suggestion in response to someone's request for a Limit Break. Frankly, I think that a system with CT style combination attacks doesn't need limit breaks, but if we wanted to add them, I'd get behind a Tension mechanic since I think it would mesh well with that system.

re: the ECN - I'm talking about imagery. What do we want these guys and their dungeons and their minions to look like?


Now, I think we might want to get into fleshing out our races more.

  • Orcs. More Warcraft than Tolkien. A Roman theme was suggested.
    • Our Orc PC: the melee lead. Tanks for the party well.
  • The Fair Folk. A satyr appearance was suggested. Presumably these guys are human-sized and equally physically capable. Want magic to win out over tech.
    • Our Fairy PC: combination melee/spellcaster Magic Knight. Good at a little bit of everything; comparable, say, to Zelos and Kratos in Tales Of Symphonia.
  • The Elves. Suggested to be more Keebler than Tolkien; implies they'd be the hobbits of the setting as well. Want to have their cake and eat it too as regards the magic/tech divide.
    • Our Elf PC: the party ninja. Hits fast, possibly from a distance (a PC who can attack both up close and far away is perfectly acceptable, if you want to give this one a bow).
  • The Goblins. Favour technology winning out over magic. Like to fight with robots and artillery and firearms.
    • Our Goblin PC: fights from a mech, which implies being tough and slow, as well as having an option of brutal melee combat or powerful blasting. Comparable to Robo in Chrono Trigger.
  • The Humans. Implied that they alone have not captured their ancestral homeland, which to me says nomadic or seafaring culture.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Deathonabun Bunny from the bedroom Since: Jan, 2001
Bunny
#285: Jul 25th 2010 at 11:02:02 AM

^Ah yes, the magic knight. We have to be careful with that one; she can't be too weak, or too overpowered.

Her attacks will probably have to combine physical and magic. Throw a dagger and lightening strikes it en route; Stab an enemy and channel an explosion through the weapon, that sort of stuff.

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander
Deathonabun Bunny from the bedroom Since: Jan, 2001
Bunny
#286: Jul 26th 2010 at 8:28:58 AM

Okay, so I had a lot of time to think about this in econ class today.

So our little magic knight. Shall she use a spear? I can think of a number of attacks with that.

  • A wide spear swing with a razor wind following it
  • A leap followed with an icicle spear downward thrust
  • Earth opens up, enveloping the spear. A few seconds later, it rockets out of the ground as an earth spike.

As for the ninja hobbit, I feel like daggers would work better so they can be used as both ranged and up close.

I also thought up a combo attack or two.

  • Ninja readies about 10 daggers (or 10 arrows if we go with bow). Necromancer enchants them with healing magic and the ninja fires a rain of daggers at the party, healing them all with backstabs.
  • Someone (maybe the orc? I dunno) readies a super powerful dangerous forbidden technique that will kill the user. Necromancer either (A) heals them during the whole thing so they don't die from it or (B) lets them do it, raises the user as a zombie and has them do it again. Perhaps the second time the forbidden technique actually brings the user back to life? Or, to make it more of a desperation attack, they get really dead and can only be brought back at the local inn/church/hospital; normal healing magic won't cut it.
  • Magic Knight enchants own weapon with ice, Orc's weapon with fire, throws her weapon to the orc, and the orc goes completely apeshit on everyone with both weapons.

I think that's about all I came up with. Feedback?

edited 26th Jul '10 8:29:30 AM by Deathonabun

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#287: Jul 26th 2010 at 9:14:25 AM

healing them all with backstabs
XD We're calling that one "tough love".

On the magic knight PC, I like the thought of this aloof and antisocial character being deeply committed to the future of his country and possessing strong political opinions. Thus, he would react even more strongly when his superiors turn on him. If we go with the appearance suggestion I made earlier, it would be a very effective case of a government making a bad decision only to face a backlash of vicious political satyr.

edited 26th Jul '10 9:14:36 AM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Deathonabun Bunny from the bedroom Since: Jan, 2001
Bunny
#288: Jul 26th 2010 at 9:41:26 AM

Aloof and antisocial, eh? Not my favorite kind of character, but he's alright if he can be done right.

And actually, that would fit in perfectly with his powers. He's not used to working on a team, so he's self-sufficient, with magic, physical, and healing.

Perhaps he gets combo attacks later than everyone else to reflect this?

edited 26th Jul '10 4:10:52 PM by Deathonabun

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#289: Jul 29th 2010 at 2:15:48 AM

That would make sense. Magus in CT was very much the same; strong all-rounder, but lacking in the Dual Techs.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#290: Aug 1st 2010 at 2:43:43 AM

Hello? sad Anyone there?

This is not encouraging for the state of TVTF community projects.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
eX 94. Grandmaster of Shark Since: Jan, 2001
94. Grandmaster of Shark
#291: Aug 1st 2010 at 7:28:29 AM

Yeah, I'm currently on vacation, so I don't post this much.

First, Radical Taoist, I like your ideas. In addition, I would suggest that there aren't actually that many Greater Monocles left, just a few powerful individuals, a dozen or so, hence why they need to raise an army to destroy the world.

Secondly, I support the ideas to substitute the fairies for satyr, jut because that allows to use you pun, which I deem the most awesome pun ever!

Thirdly, I like the idea that our necromancer is a cheerful child, even as Staff Chick, but with the twist, that, as a Necromancer, s/he has a completely different approach and understanding of death than the rest of our war ridden group. A lá, a corpse is just a friend you haven't raised yet.

I don't have my sprites here at the moment, but I can show you the orc template I have so far and I also found a usable satyr template online that we could use. But I also encourage all you to search online for usable graphics, be it maps or characters.

For the invention of the combo attacks, I suggest we first lay out the basic attacks of the individual characters before we go for the combo attacks. Because even if you only give each character one individual attack, we would end up with 10 combination attacks. By two attacks, we have 40 and by 3 attacks, we have 90 and so on.

So, as you see, we should really think about how many normal attacks we give each character. Or we could limit which attacks can be combined.

edited 1st Aug '10 7:29:33 AM by eX

Deathonabun Bunny from the bedroom Since: Jan, 2001
Bunny
#292: Aug 1st 2010 at 7:34:32 AM

Or we could limit which attacks can be combined.

This. This this this.

If we combine EVERY SINGLE ATTACK THEY HAVE then we are (a) going to be limiting what they can do on their own and (b) create way too many combos, resulting in many that are probably worthless.

I mean, think about Lost Magic. We do not want to come up with that many attacks.

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#293: Aug 1st 2010 at 4:50:01 PM

First, Radical Taoist, I like your ideas. In addition, I would suggest that there aren't actually that many Greater Monocles left, just a few powerful individuals, a dozen or so, hence why they need to raise an army to destroy the world.
That works fine with the backstory I suggested; those are the guys who had the sense to seal themselves off before the rest of their species destroyed themselves.
Secondly, I support the ideas to substitute the fairies for satyr, jut because that allows to use you pun, which I deem the most awesome pun ever!
I like your sense of humour, sir.
Thirdly, I like the idea that our necromancer is a cheerful child, even as Staff Chick, but with the twist, that, as a Necromancer, s/he has a completely different approach and understanding of death than the rest of our war ridden group. A lá, a corpse is just a friend you haven't raised yet.
This is fucking canon. I don't care what else happens, this character will say that line at some point in the game.
I don't have my sprites here at the moment, but I can show you the orc template I have so far and I also found a usable satyr template online that we could use. But I also encourage all you to search online for usable graphics, be it maps or characters.
Y'know, I should probably ask you guys if you have a Wave going still.
If we combine EVERY SINGLE ATTACK THEY HAVE then we are (a) going to be limiting what they can do on their own and (b) create way too many combos, resulting in many that are probably worthless.

I mean, think about Lost Magic. We do not want to come up with that many attacks.

Definitely. Let's shoot for exclusivity; any one move should only be able to combo with any one other move from a different character. Each character should have at least two combos with each other teammate. Something like that.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#294: Aug 1st 2010 at 6:09:41 PM

So then, each character gets a minimum of ten techs, plus possibly magic if we decide to have that separate from the skill system.

That means we could start designing techs now (though I'd like to note here that you shouldn't make anything that would require a more complicated animation then the ones from Chrono Trigger.)

My contributions to the tech list:

  • Orc Knight:
    • The provoke-type tech that all tanks need. Dunno what this'll look like, exactly.
  • Satyr Red Mage:
    • Lights his sword on fire(/ices it/electrically charges it) and hits the enemy with it.
  • Elf Ninja:
    • Jumps in the air and throws daggers at the enemy for her next 2 turns.
    • Jumps in the air and spams daggers.
    • Disappears and reappears behind the target the next turn, instantly killing it if it's not immune to instant death and about 3 times normal attack damage if it is.
    • Jumps and throws a poisoned dagger. (As you can see, this seems to be turning into the status effects guy.)
  • Goblin Mecha:
    • Obviously, the obligatory "shoots lasers at the enemy".
  • Human Necromancer:
    • Something like Relm's Sketch where she raises the corpse of an enemy just long enough for it to do one attack. (Maybe this should be magic, actually?)
    • Cure tech, obviously.
    • Tech where she heals an enemy until it goes all flesh beast and starts attacking people at random. (Got the idea from SCP-427)

Deathonabun Bunny from the bedroom Since: Jan, 2001
Bunny
#295: Aug 1st 2010 at 7:16:22 PM

You just reminded me about status effects. Can we change them so they aren't so worthless? For example, make many bosses vulnerable to status effects, but make them weaker; Poison does about 1/8 damage of the attack that caused it, blind reduces accuracy by 20%, silence reduces magic accuracy by 20%, etc.

Personally, I'd like the taunt attack to be a sucker punch. It may not do much damage or any at all, but it pisses people off.

Oh, and uh...did we ever decide what the magic knights weapon is?

Oh, one more thing. Just writing down this combo so I don't forget.

Satyr and Elf

  • Defib: Elf stabs dead body with both daggers. Satyr lightnings the daggers, sending a charge through the body. Resurrection, obviously.

edited 1st Aug '10 7:29:40 PM by Deathonabun

One of my few regrets about being born female is the inability to grow a handlebar mustache. -Landstander
Twilightdusk Since: Jan, 2001
#296: Aug 8th 2010 at 10:20:48 PM

Followed this with interest from Black Humor's signature, and it looks like you guys have your stuff pretty together. That said, if there's any way I could help I'd like to try, even if it's as minor as trying to help figure out techs and spells and such.

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#297: Aug 9th 2010 at 12:18:32 AM

Yay! My signature actually attracted someone!

But seriously, of course there's something you could do. Remember, anything you say helps the topic not die.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#298: Aug 9th 2010 at 1:03:49 AM

I was actually worrying the topic was dead.

It seems like we have a good amount of creative staff, but are lacking in programming and graphical muscle.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#299: Aug 9th 2010 at 1:28:12 AM

Graphics is really easy; nearly anything we would need could be frankensprited from other stuff and all we'd need to do is give credit to the original spriters.

Programming is a little harder, but I am again very familiar with Python, which means I'm somewhat familiar with Ruby, so I could at least mod any necessary scripts.

eX 94. Grandmaster of Shark Since: Jan, 2001
94. Grandmaster of Shark
#300: Aug 9th 2010 at 7:55:59 AM

Graphics really shouldn't be a problem, except for the Orcs, the Goblins and the Saytrs, since these aren't exactly common fantasy races, which means I have to edit them together from pieces. Not really complicated, but time intensive.

I am currently visiting my parents, so I don't have my computer, where I do have some of the orc stuff. Also, for a bit more of the writing work, I had a nice idea for the opening scene and I am currently writing a script/storyboard for that.

We also should do some organization stuff: writing something like an outline for the story, thinking about quests, monsters and loot.

AND We must find a way to actually collect all this stuff centralized! It would be pretty annoying, if we had to go through the whole thread each time we need some information, once we start editing. For that purpose, the waves actually weren't that bad. You can also see what happens when to writer have two very different ideas about the story.tongue

edited 9th Aug '10 8:04:37 AM by eX


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