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We have this already: First Base Never Scores

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Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Nov 19th 2010 at 7:04:45 PM

As repeatedly pointed out in the YKTTW, we already have this. It's called All Girls Want Bad Boys, Nice Guys Finish Last, and Dogged Nice Guy

Also, the title makes no sense. Would you see "First Base Never Scores" and think it's about girls rejecting the nice boy to have sex with jerks? The title makes me think about baseball and how first base isn't considered a "scoring position".

edited 19th Nov '10 7:08:51 PM by Sackett

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#2: Nov 19th 2010 at 7:08:51 PM

He launched that?! omg... cut.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
MidasMint Duke of Dudes from Eris' 8th Square Since: Jan, 2001
Duke of Dudes
#3: Nov 19th 2010 at 7:27:25 PM

Sackett, methinks you feign ignorance as to what "bases" and "scoring" mean. What alternate title do you recommend?

Also, this trope is not about bad boys vs. nice guys.

stay golden
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Nov 19th 2010 at 7:40:33 PM

First Base is slang for a kiss.

Scoring is slang for sex.

How does that make the trope title any more clear?

And yes this trope is about nice boys vs bad boys.

It says that women reject nice men and have sex with jerks.

I propose we call it All Girls Want Bad Boys

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#5: Nov 19th 2010 at 7:44:41 PM

Nothing gold can stay.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
RocketScience Not dead yet. from a dark place Since: Jan, 2001
Not dead yet.
#7: Nov 19th 2010 at 8:06:17 PM

Agreed. Cut it.

MidasMint Duke of Dudes from Eris' 8th Square Since: Jan, 2001
Duke of Dudes
#8: Nov 19th 2010 at 8:34:14 PM

Citizens please, lay down your pitchforks and torches. Let us have a dialogue rather than random outcries of, "cut it".

Who are the nice guys and bad boys in this trope?

stay golden
elwoz Since: Nov, 2010
#9: Nov 19th 2010 at 8:36:21 PM

Midas Mint: I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, consider that you might be wrong. Particularly when you say X and everyone else says Not X.

Also, I'm pretty new around here, but pulling something back out of Discarded YKTTW and immediately launching it seems like a breach of etiquette to me.

edited 19th Nov '10 8:36:47 PM by elwoz

JoieDeCombat Since: May, 2009
#10: Nov 19th 2010 at 8:37:27 PM

Almost all of the examples given involve women sleeping with men who treat them badly, sometimes as compared to men who treat them well and who they don't sleep with. That is exactly what All Girls Want Bad Boys and Nice Guys Finish Last are about. If the trope isn't meant to have anything to do with those things, then the examples are poorly-chosen.

MidasMint Duke of Dudes from Eris' 8th Square Since: Jan, 2001
Duke of Dudes
#11: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:05:56 PM

Eloz, you're speaking my language.

Joie De Combat, nobody wants mistreated. You say that's All Girls Want Bad Boys is about women sleeping with men who treat them badly. That sounds like a euphemism for rape and that's not what this trope's about. Worse, it's a horribly degrading interpretation of Nice Guys Finish Last to define women as just a goal for men to "finish" with. Women are people, not sex objects.

edited 19th Nov '10 9:08:33 PM by MidasMint

stay golden
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#12: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:08:27 PM

Nobody agrees. You can come up with reasons this isn't All Girls Want Bad Boys. Those reasons are totally buried by some high-quality arguments that it totally is AGWBB. Consider the possibility that it is. (Even though you aren't seeing it.)

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
MidasMint Duke of Dudes from Eris' 8th Square Since: Jan, 2001
Duke of Dudes
#13: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:12:46 PM

Everyone posting examples and editing the trope page agrees.

The time invested in a relationship has nothing to do with the niceness/badness of the boy. A nice guy can get one night stands. A bad boy can have a girlfriend of an extended period he hasn't had sex with. The girl doesn't have to like either boy or could like both.

All Girls Want Bad Boys is about favoring a style over anything else and that has nothing to do with First Base Never Scores.

edited 19th Nov '10 9:15:49 PM by MidasMint

stay golden
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#14: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:16:31 PM

Perhaps there are some specific situations that fit FBNS and not AGWBB. Certainly not all flavors of AGWBB are FBNS. But some are. Some kinds of "bad boys" are the ones who snub girls. Some kinds of "girls want" involve who the girl decides to sleep with. Generally speaking, this is totally AGWBB. You are trying to make a trope out of a tiny sliver of the larger meaning described by AGWBB.

Also, you launched a trope that had many strong objections and no one defending it. Really bad form.

Also also: the "people editing the trope" are two people who made typographic corrections. Nobody agrees.

edited 19th Nov '10 9:22:10 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
MidasMint Duke of Dudes from Eris' 8th Square Since: Jan, 2001
Duke of Dudes
#15: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:20:40 PM

If P1 = AGWBB = FBNS and P2 AGWBB is about girls preferring bad boys. Then Conclusion FBNS is about girls preferring bad boys.

But P1 = FBNS has nothing to do with whether the boys are bad or good. and P2 = FBNS has nothing to do with what guy the girl prefers. Then Conclusion FBNS is not AGWBB.

Ex: 1) Angelina expressed hatred for Vinny before and after having sex with him. 2) Vinny is a nice guy.

stay golden
Tyoria Since: Jul, 2009
#16: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:25:48 PM

Almost all of the examples are about the guys being specifically mean to the girls, not disinterested.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#17: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:32:38 PM

I see what you're saying. For, like, the entire time: "AGWBB is about girls feeling a certain way because of the image a boy has. FBNS is about girls acting a certain way because of actions a boy takes." Is that right? Do you want to put it differently?

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
MidasMint Duke of Dudes from Eris' 8th Square Since: Jan, 2001
Duke of Dudes
#18: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:33:24 PM

Tyoria, what specific example would you say does not fit the trope?

stay golden
Tyoria Since: Jul, 2009
#19: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:43:57 PM

Tyoria, what specific example would you say does not fit the trope?

What I said was that most of the examples were specifically of men being mean to women in order to successfully score. Of the current examples:

  • This is an old one. In the movie version of Pal Joey, Joey (played by Frank Sinatra) says, "Treat a dame like a lady and a lady like a dame." He then proceeds to sing "The Lady Is a Tramp". He then scores. The Chairman of the Board, ladies and gentlemen. [Bad]

  • Yo! Bo Burnham said, "I treat my objects like women," and the ladies like Bo fo sho. [Bad]

  • One Hundred Years Of Solitude: Rebeca is courted by Pietro Crespi and it looks like they'll marry. She abandons him as soon as she meets José Arcadio, who immediately starts sleeping with her. [Good]

  • Family Guy: Quagmire explains to Stewie that this is how to get women interested. [This directly references the trope so it would depend on the context, which I'm unfamiliar with. I don't know whether the advice in question was "act uninterested" or "treat them like dirt."]

  • Futurama: Bender tells Amy to shut up. Cut to a scene of her and Bender in bed. Earlier she ignored Kif's affection. [Bad]

  • Red Vs Blue: Tucker tells his "kid" that the ladies like it when you're a little mean to them. [Bad]

  • The Ur-Example is the common joke that you stop having sex after you're married. [Good]

  • Jersey Shore:
    • Angelina had numerous one-night stands but strung along a guy who dated her. [Good]

    • Sammi treated Ron nicer the more abusive he was and became hostile only when he was nice. [Bad]

    • Jwow took vacations from her longtime boyfriend to party with guys from Jersey Shore and Miami. [Good]

Every single one of those "bad" entries could be accurately filed under All Girls Want Bad Boys — as a deliberate attempt to Invoke it. That's 7 bad entries to 3 good ones and one uncertain.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#20: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:46:15 PM

(Also I think the "marriage joke" one being counted as "good" is very generous.)

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
MidasMint Duke of Dudes from Eris' 8th Square Since: Jan, 2001
Duke of Dudes
#21: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:52:46 PM

I have edited the entry in accordance with Tyoria and rodneyAnonymous's suggestions. The one exception is Frank Sinatra's the Lady is a Tramp. He doesn't treat her badly he treats her like a tramp. Getting sex for expecting it is in part what this trope's about (from the guy's perspective).

With the trope so clarified by the culling of its' weaker examples it is repaired.

edited 19th Nov '10 9:53:43 PM by MidasMint

stay golden
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#22: Nov 19th 2010 at 9:55:33 PM

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=edsou7813ez6srh475cvd7m0&page=1#17

(It's not a trick. I really want to know.)

edited 19th Nov '10 9:57:08 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Tyoria Since: Jul, 2009
#23: Nov 19th 2010 at 10:02:32 PM

n/m

edited 19th Nov '10 10:04:40 PM by Tyoria

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#24: Nov 19th 2010 at 10:03:59 PM

I meant I really want to know if I understand Midas Mint's point correctly.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
MidasMint Duke of Dudes from Eris' 8th Square Since: Jan, 2001
Duke of Dudes
#25: Nov 19th 2010 at 10:10:20 PM

Not even necessarily actions. It could take many forms

There could be a stalker-ishly obsessive dude going, "I love you forever marry me!" While she runs away screaming, "I don't know you!" and she could orally pleasure a man b/c he offered his penis and she was already having sex on a frathouse lawn.

Come to think of it, the stalker example doesn't work so well b/c it's hard to conceive of as a genuine love but it's a fun example.

To A ur Q: hmmm. I'll have to think about if it's actions vs. image. I guess not necessarily. The impetus doesn't have to come from the guy. Some girls will seduce men at parties or on a cruise b/c they know their boyfriend/fiance/whatever has no way of finding out. Paradoxically, her refusal to have sex with (or go as far or perform certain acts) with the one guy and taking that as a foregone conclusion makes it easier for her to think of trying to get done by the other d00ds as an adventure or cutting loose.

Having thought about it, no. B/c image vs. actions would mean FBNS is a trope that includes male dominance in initiation as part of its' definition. But a girl actively doing her best to get laid by strangers though she has a more serious relationship would be an equally valid example of this trope.

However (and this is my last bit for today) I would say part of AGWBB definition is that the "badness" is part of an image. The trope description gets into that by mentioning informed abilities and how if these guys were really bad /as they seem/ they would be psychotic, abusive, etc.

edited 19th Nov '10 10:16:47 PM by MidasMint

stay golden

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