By popular demand. And because seriously, what the FUCK.
Like I said, I'm not taking anything at face value without evidence that does NOT rely on interpretations of the show. In other words, show me Word of God on that or forever hold your peace.
That's my stance on the matter.
edited 17th Feb '18 5:19:07 PM by amitakartok
Blazing Trolls on 17th Feb '18 5:14:22 PM :
This is also incorrect. The existing trope definition already included her faults, saying that she was "screwed up", which still is there now. It really isn't a good description. It doesn't just need to establish that she's cocky, but if you read Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy it also clearly states that a part of the trope is that the person in question "often isn't as a talented as they claim", which is is something that also helps the reader understand the inclusion of the trope.
I don't see how. If anything, it added reasons.
I don't see how. Do not misunderstand, this is not about he trope Ace Pilot, which is not mentioned in Asuka's entry for Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy either. It was about whether or not Asuka was an Ace, or had said that she was an Ace. This does not happen in the series. Hence, it would be wrong to say that "Asuka was an Ace", or that she "said" she was an Ace.
If anything, this only demonstrates that you do not even bother to read the changes before reverting them, nor read the reason for the addition.
edited 17th Feb '18 5:30:41 PM by Nanrel
This discussion was one I'd like to have later, but for the record, if you re-check episode 22 I believe, the NERV personnel around Asuka refer to her and her mother as "dolls".
NERV (or then Gehirn) kept entire stocks of pilots herded together in a class room for future use. Asuka was, since childhood, part of that manipulative program. This is demonstrated and mentioned in the series directly.
It goes to follow that when NERV is responsible for the death of her mother and continuously pushed Asuka down the path of EVA-piloting by giving her praise and telling her that she was special, that they established an iron grip on her psyche which we see precisely as expected in all of Evangelion.
It's without question a fact that NERV's actions during Asuka's formative years came to shape her entire personality as we see it later in the series. Given the extensive symbolism of dolls surrounding Asuka, that she has inner fears about being one, is often represented as a doll through a doll herself - and the fact that NERV does indeed have the ability to control her like one through restricting/allowing access to the EVA they've made her dependent on, it is clear that the tragedy is complete. She was indeed much like a puppet to NERV and that was thoroughly demonstrated in Evangelion.
edited 17th Feb '18 5:44:19 PM by Nanrel
The one who actually use the "doll" expression in the example is Daddy Langley himself, and he is really kind of a massive, neglectful pick towards his wife and daughter.
Case in point; the aforementoined example is the literary terms he uses discusses said wife and daugther with his mistress.
Edit: The point is; it is not a discussion of any deliberate policy. It is a private conversation between Asuka's father and his lover, that Asuka happens to overhear.
edited 17th Feb '18 10:49:43 PM by TheAmazingBlachman
We're all still aliens.Um, I’m pretty sure she brags about her skills all the time and can back it up. Also to say she “doesn’t measure up” is also incorrect. She is probably the best pilot among the children, for most the series. The only one to surpass her is Shinj, but even then it’s not really in skill. Also the Ace Pilot page
“Neon Genesis Evangelion gives us professional kid pilot Asuka to contrast Shinji, the epitome of Ordinary High-School Student spineless protagonists. Unfortunately all the piloting skill in the world won't save you. It will make you look like a Hot-Blooded badass in The Movie, though.”
She is the only one mentioned in the series. So your case of her not mesuring up in skill doesn’t add up.
The edit
“Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy: She is a deconstructed female example. She's extremely cocky and aggressive, takes great pride in her skills as an Ace Pilot. However, it's later revealed that she uses this attitude to obfuscate just how “screwed up” she really is.”
Sums up everything you need to know about about her cocky attitude. We have other enteries to explain the emotional issues.
But again it wasn’t about her being brainwashed. He was just a prick.
Her mother’s death did impact her, but not in the way you said it did. Her actions are because she wants attention. You seem to be saying NERV formed her personality, but there is no evidence for that.
edited 17th Feb '18 5:55:24 PM by BlazingTrolls
Blazing Trolls on 17th Feb '18 5:48:02 PM
She does indeed brag about her skills, which is something the current revision of the Trope description fails to mention. Being "cocky" or "aggressive" doesn't by itself involve bragging or being overbearing about one's own ability. Neither does taking pride in one's own skill. One can be prideful and not be overbearing or arrogant about it at the same time.
Moreover this isn't really about explaining her emotional issues as much as it is explaining to people who may not have seen Evangelion why the trope fits. Therefore including the fact that she does indeed brag and glorify her own skills, wanting to show up Shinji, but end up failing to keep up with the other pilots would be necessary.
I think that when you call her "the best pilot", that is at best subjective and not necessarily something the story itself agrees with - hence Asuka is after all, the only pilot that actually worsens in her ability to pilot the EVA. This is a development that as earlier mentioned, Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy embraces and includes as part of it's description.
Again, please take care in reading the posts and replies people give you: the Ace Pilot trope is entirely irrelevant in this case. It discusses another trope, which makes it irrelevant even if it has the word "Ace" in it.
edited 17th Feb '18 6:02:07 PM by Nanrel
Blazing Trolls on 17th Feb '18 5:50:56 PM
Yes, and why does Asuka want attention again? It is because NERV removed those who could give her attention, and then supplied her with another means of getting attention: EVA piloting.
This is tantamount to NERV asserting control over Asuka. It's not really just a coincidence all of this, and NERV isn't just being "pricks". They want pilots and they use underhanded and unethical methods to get them.
edited 17th Feb '18 5:59:18 PM by Nanrel
It says “She's extremely cocky and aggressive, takes great pride in her skills as an Ace Pilot”. Are you sure I’m the one not reading?
Her failing at the end are due to her emotional issues, not her skills. It’s hard to say it’s subjective when, it’s shown thought the series and she’s the only one listed under Ace Pilot. You can’t really argue facts.
Again your assuming NERV did that. Your filling in blanks to come to that conclusion.
edited 17th Feb '18 6:03:00 PM by BlazingTrolls
Yes, I am very sure. This section of the post I wrote:
"Being "cocky" or "aggressive" doesn't by itself involve bragging or being overbearing about one's own ability. Neither does taking pride in one's own skill. One can be prideful and not be overbearing or arrogant about it at the same time."
takes care of explaining why the current definition does not hold or fit the trope in question. Please don't ignore the argumentation you're served.
I don't think trope pages serve as any authority on anything, and you leave out how the other pilots manage better than Asuka as the series goes on.
But more importantly, as has been mentioned several times already, Ace Pilot is a different trope altogether and not up for discussion right now. I don't recall touching it, so I don't see why you have to needlessly come back to this.
I'm really not. You can't seriously be disputing that NERV has something to do with the EVA's, the methods behind creating them or aquiring pilots?
edited 17th Feb '18 6:13:17 PM by Nanrel
I think you’re the only one who thinks the edit isn’t clear enough.
I keep bring Ace Pilot up because your reasoning for your edit was:
“Reworded Arrogant Kung Fu Guy to explain further why the trope fits the character. With this trope, it is important to highlight how the trope subject is arrogant, which is the case for Asuka. "Ace" was removed because Asuka never becomes or was an Ace pilot, or claims to be. Removed some cruft and ambiguous wording.”
First, you didn’t add anything new to highlight how she was arrogant. Second, the rest of what you said was incorrect. Also no I mentioned Shinji surpassed her.
Lastly, no I can not say for certain NERV did any of that. What we know for certain is this 1) Asuka’s mother served as a test subject that went wrong. Resulting in her losing her mind. 2) Her old man was a prick.
We do not know A) NERV killed her mother B) Brainwashed her.
edited 17th Feb '18 6:24:49 PM by BlazingTrolls
Blazing Trolls on 17th Feb '18 6:18:17 PM
I think you don't have an argument.
which, as earlier stated, is entirely pointless on your part because the edit reason does not mention the trope Ace Pilot as all. Nor does the changes involve the trope Ace Pilot either.
But I did - I reworded it to claim that she bragged about her skills as an EVA pilot. Which is only true, she did. I could also add more, that she was overbearing about it. Maybe I will. Second, you saying I'm incorrect really doesn't make it so.
Really? If that's the case, I don't see how you're qualified to comment on anything listed on the characters page. They created the EVA's, they operate and maintaing the EVA's, and Gendo and Fuyutsuki are personally listed on the list of shell companies that make up the Marduk institute who perform the "selection" of EVA pilots.
Regarding the Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy, I honestly don't see how you have a case here at all. Nor do I see the point in rejecting the changes when you've already agreed that Asuka brags about her own skills.
Your the only who has a issue with the edit. I’m not the one who needs to make a case, so don’t get angry when I punch holes in yours. Considering you where where editing with a agenda, your not in any position to say what I can discuss. Especially seeing as I would rather use facts, rather than your suspicions.
The fact remains the current edit covers her bragging and prideful nature, but doesn’t have false statements.
edited 17th Feb '18 6:36:13 PM by BlazingTrolls
Anyone looking at the history of the page could see you where the one with a agenda. You basically complained about Anno for “favoring Asuka” and bashed a studio for “potraying Rei in a negative light”. You also deleted All positive traits from Asuka and replaced them with your own garbage, such as replacing things like “Intelligent” with “thinks she’s smart”. Then to top it all off you downplayed Rei’s negative traits, but felt the need to add such brilliant bits like she “ bravely faced her own fate”.
The only one with no credibility her is you and if you are going to throw a fit, this disscusion is over.
edited 17th Feb '18 6:53:16 PM by BlazingTrolls
Again, that's completely false, and you keep demonstrating that you actually have no case since you keep changing the topic. I also think it's clear by now that you don't like the edits because you're obsessed with Asuka or something, and you intend to block every single edit based on that obsession alone. Even if it's justified.
Like we've discussed, the edits you don't like are actually justified and help improve the page. If you can't actually provide a good reason for why these edits should not be made, then I suggest you just let it be. You can't block an entire page just to suit your fancy.
Again I’m not the only one who has undone your edits. I’m also not the only one who thought you had a bias. I have P Ms that can prove that. The mod also refers to you with:
“The edits that were made to Asuka's sections (which have since been reverted) feel very bashy and agenda-driven”
So stop having a fit, you’re making it worse for yourself.
I’m going to compare the edits, so listen this time because this is probably my last post for tonight.
The current edit says:
“* Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy: She is a deconstructed female example. She's extremely cocky and aggressive, takes great pride in her skills as an Ace Pilot. However, it's later revealed that she uses this attitude to obfuscate just how “screwed up” she really is.”
It’s short, simple, and to the point. It also establishes she has emotional issues.
Now the issue with yours:
“ * Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy: She is a deconstructed female example. Initially she is extremely cocky and brags about her skills as an EVA Pilot.”
This adds nothing new to display her attitude. The current edit is both, more meaningful and more discriptive.
“As the story progresses it is shown that she cannot keep up with the rest of the pilots and her arrogance was in truth, misplaced overconfidence and a way to escape from reality.”
As stated before this whole second half is incorrect. Her skill is not lacking, nor was her faith in her skill really misplaced. It’s her pent up emotional issues that haunt her.
So basically your edit can be summed up as “ she acts cocky, because she has no skill”, but that’s wrong. So the reason we are keeping the original is A) yours adds nothing and B) yours is incorrect. Meaning you have no justification.
Got it?
edited 17th Feb '18 8:04:38 PM by BlazingTrolls
I mean, yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Blazing Trolls that Asuka was actually that good to start with. She mainly falls behind the others when her mental issues start affecting her piloting skills, which in turn causes her mental state to decline, and the cycle repeats.
We see evidence of her piloting skills, for example, in End of Evangelion, when she's finally free of her mental issues, which is her delivering a curb stomp battle to multiple Mass Production Series until they regenerate, something which I highly doubt either Shinji or Rei could do based on their feats (unless Shinji was in berserk mode, possibly).
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Blazing Trolls on 17th Feb '18 7:13:36 PM
The only others who have didn't mean it to take they agreed with you. Nor does it matter, your points have been proven wrong earlier. You keep claiming they're more descriptive, but unlike mine none of your posts actually explain why.
That makes you wrong by default.
You've only got your own claim versus well-founded argumentations and explanations.
No, keeping repeating yourself only makes it worse for you.
Sigilbreaker 26 on 17th Feb '18 7:42:22 PM
Which would be a mistake. To start with? How can you say a pilot "is that good" if the pilot has never seen actual combat? Indeed, the whole point is that Asuka brags without ever having seen any combat at all, which Shinji has. Hence her arrogance.
At the time, there was no substance to Asuka's claims. This is a MUST to mention if you're going to list the trope at all, which involves arrogance, being overbearing or overconfident.
Moreover, it would seem that Blazing Trolls mistakes false bravado for skill. Being skilled at EVA piloting is more than just saying you're skilled or striking a flashy pose. It's dedication, teamwork, focus, tactical understanding, and not to mention coping with pressure - emotional or otherwise.
A skilled jet fighter pilot isn't skilled because he knows how to do a barrel roll or because he's graduated as a jet fighter pilot. He's skilled because he knows how to defeat the enemy in any given situation, even if he's under great pressure. Skill is performing.
edited 17th Feb '18 8:28:20 PM by Nanrel
You don't need combat experience to do well on training missions, which is probably where her confidence comes from, and Asuka's first display of combat in the series is her absolutely kicking ass on the water with Shinji along for the ride, which includes the highly precise feat of jumping from boat to boat repeatedly. This after Shinji has already shown how difficult it is to precisely control an EVA's movement.
Asuka has the best combat record of all the pilots for a while. After a failure - can't remember which one - she does start massively falling into that cycle, but when she was on top, she was. Her false bravado isn't masking lack of skill, it's masking her personal emotional insecurities.
edited 17th Feb '18 8:31:04 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Sigilbreaker 26 on 17th Feb '18 8:28:37 PM
But yes, you do need combat experience to say you're a skilled EVA pilot. Without it, you're just a rookie, aren't you? You can practice the theory of playing football all your life, but until you've actually played on the field yourself you don't really have any right to say you're a skilled football player. You'd simply get laughed at. Likewise, claiming you're the best EVA pilot without actually having fought an enemy yet is definitely arrogance.
Asuka's false bravado comes from delusions she has about her own skill, which causes her to act arrogantly not just among her teammates, but also before her enemies. Thus the point remains that Asuka was in fact overbearing, arrogant and bragged a lot about her own skill during the series most chances she got. This should be included in the trope description, otherwise you might as well remove it.
I also don't think jumping from boat to boat implies some sort of skill. It is merely jumping. Shinji's trip in the first episode is explained by him being completely and utterely unprepared, and it's not really comparable. Later on Shinji proceeds to do impressive things and never has any issue controlling the EVA again. The implication we've gotten from earlier episodes is in fact that piloting the EVA is extremely intuitive and easy. "Just think about it", is what Ritsuko says.
I don't think Asuka had the best combat record of all the pilots at any point in the series. That would be Shinji, who started fighting Angels before Asuka arrived eight episodes later. Shinji fights more Angels, defeats more Angels and has a lead on Asuka since the very start. Despite having a slew of emotional issues himself, Shinji never fails to be able to pilot his EVA either. Keep that in mind as well.
edited 17th Feb '18 8:44:45 PM by Nanrel

Stated where?
Where is it explicitly said with unambiguous wording? Which episode, at what timestamp? Which official material?
edited 17th Feb '18 5:15:21 PM by amitakartok