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Rework, possibly Cut List, "You fail X Forever"...

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Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#326: Nov 18th 2010 at 4:57:25 PM

I think we still need that somewhere. Or at least, it would be helpful.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#327: Nov 18th 2010 at 5:08:59 PM

How about as a Name Space for the index?

Fight smart, not fair.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#328: Nov 18th 2010 at 5:21:50 PM

I was thinking there would be a folder in the index to hold examples awaiting classification.

For example, we might have an example that is talked about as an error of scientific fact, right now. We can look at it say, well, it's about physics, but I don't see it clumping in with other physics examples in a way that defines a subtrope. I'll just stuff it in the pending folder. Maybe re-write it a bit to take off the "writers are idiots" feel, but let it sit there waiting for something else like it to come along.

edited 18th Nov '10 5:22:31 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#329: Nov 18th 2010 at 5:30:08 PM

Should we clump similar examples too?

Fight smart, not fair.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#330: Nov 18th 2010 at 5:37:54 PM

I'd say so. If you get three in a clump, that's a real good clue that you've got a trope.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#331: Nov 18th 2010 at 6:00:34 PM

And it takes priority over medium or other organizational systems?

Fight smart, not fair.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#332: Nov 18th 2010 at 6:01:51 PM

I think that would be best, since in this case we're looking for similar uses, regardless of where they show up.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#333: Nov 18th 2010 at 6:29:51 PM

Do we leave the other sections alone or just leave it in a lump. Or a folder at the top for "multiple instances of same issue"?

Fight smart, not fair.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#334: Nov 18th 2010 at 6:35:22 PM

The only examples that would be in an index level would be those that don't fit in a page that's on the index and aren't numerous enough to warrant being made a trope. Everything else should be on it's appropriate trope page, or in YKTTW being built into a trope page. Let me grab one of the smaller fail pages and break it out...

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#335: Nov 18th 2010 at 6:46:04 PM

I think You Fail Pharmacology Forever is pretty small. Lemme check.

EDIT: Woo, that one grew quite a bit from the last time I saw it. But it's still on the small side for a You Fail page. Most of the page seems to be a Real Life section.

EDIT EDIT: Hmmm, the examples suggest an Instant Poison trope as a sister trope to Instant Sedation.

edited 18th Nov '10 6:51:07 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#337: Nov 18th 2010 at 8:09:09 PM

Here. Compare the dummy Sandbox.Astronomy Tropes with the current Astronomy Goof page. I didn't move natter or detailed explanations of why something was wrong, and left out the examples that were followed by an explanation of why they could be right and the whole Real Life section, so it's considerably shorter than the original. Nor did I rewrite the intro, so that's still really neener-neener-you-got-this-wrong.

edited 18th Nov '10 8:11:07 PM by Madrugada

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#338: Nov 18th 2010 at 9:15:45 PM

Excellent. I'll go start on one.

Fight smart, not fair.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#339: Nov 18th 2010 at 10:00:23 PM

Is this what we're doing for sure? I'd be happy to tackle some, but I hate to do yet another action on the tropes right after the rename and have it turn out to be changed again.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#340: Nov 18th 2010 at 10:23:37 PM

It hasn't been agreed on, that I've seen.

I did that one so we could assess how well it's going to work. If you do want to do a page, I'd say put it in the Sandbox.

One problem I had when I was working on Astronomy was figuring our which sections to separate out and which ones to lump together. The first one — Relative Planetary and Stellar Placement — could probably be further divided into two or even three more-narrowly defined sections: Misplaced Planets, You Cant See That Constellation From Here, and Its How Far Away?

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#341: Nov 19th 2010 at 12:50:06 AM

I reworked the description on Sandbox.Astronomy Tropes to remove the fault-finding tone. I'll probably go back in a minute or so and do the same for the unsorted examples. That will probably help with the trope-spotting.

ETA: There we go.

edited 19th Nov '10 1:27:59 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#342: Nov 19th 2010 at 1:48:20 AM

I think this direction is problematic in a way involving a baby and bathwater analogy.

Some tropes are incompatible with physics as we know it. This, and what would happen in reality if you tried to do XYZ, is useful information and we should be noting it somewhere. Definitely as some sort of tag/index for tropes, and probably also for proto-trope examples.

It looks like we've gone and jumped over the slippery slope from "rooting out the negative attitude" to "rooting out the very notion that some fiction is incompatible with reality".

edited 19th Nov '10 4:35:52 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
Roxor Only Sane Fox from Land Down Under Since: Jan, 2001
Only Sane Fox
#343: Nov 19th 2010 at 4:26:26 AM

So, why not just mention on the trope page (for those unrealistic elements which have their own tropes) what would actually happen in real life?

Something like this:

Note that in this does not happen in Real Life. Rather, <actual results of what would happen>.

edited 19th Nov '10 4:26:54 AM by Roxor

Accidental mistakes are forgivable, intentional ones are not.
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#344: Nov 19th 2010 at 4:41:47 AM

For the same reason we have indexes/supertropes in the first place- to somewhat accommodate the lumper perspective. Outlining a common property of a set of tropes from "above" where you can see all of them at once is useful.

edited 19th Nov '10 4:42:34 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#345: Nov 19th 2010 at 4:50:38 AM

Whether or not it would happen in real life is not important.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#346: Nov 19th 2010 at 5:19:50 AM

Really?

I mean, that sounds sort of... prescriptive. Even in the most serious high-brow dry academic analysis of fiction, the similarities and contrasts with real life are an important point. And it seems it's an issue for us too, most of the time- for starters, it's the sole difference between an Omnipresent Trope and a case of People Sit On Chairs.

edited 19th Nov '10 5:27:19 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
tnu1138 Dracula Since: Apr, 2009
Dracula
#347: Nov 19th 2010 at 5:38:19 AM

just finished reading and i'd like to jump in here that sometimes for writers it IS helpful to have these pages that point out mistakes/unrealistic elements that were made in a worik as a general page. It allows a writer to make an educated decision on what to do in certain situatins.

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#348: Nov 19th 2010 at 5:59:48 AM

Physics Tropes. I'm not really happy with the sorting yet.

Perhaps, as a compromise, we could add some Useful Notes pages on how science is used and misused in fiction and how it really works?

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#349: Nov 19th 2010 at 6:35:55 AM

I think that it is important to at least say what's unrealistic about it. Refusing to allow any mention that it's factually wrong is divorcing the trope from the reality that audience is based in. That's not anything we insist on for other tropes — we encourage brief histories of the trope or explanations of why the trope works the way it does. It possible to note "This is unrealistic and here's why" without going all negative and aggressive.

By the way, the edit you made to the 'Gallifrey is on the other side of the Milky Way' was backwards. 250 million light years isn't too short a distance to be "on the other side". It's orders of magnitude too large to still be in the Milky Way at all. It's like saying Wilmington, Delaware is across Delaport Bay from Nassau.

edited 19th Nov '10 6:50:25 AM by Madrugada

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#350: Nov 19th 2010 at 6:42:07 AM

Sandbox.You Fail Gun Safety Forever. I finished last night, but my internet disappeared for a few hours.

Fight smart, not fair.

AlternativeTitles: YouFailfix
20th Apr '10 12:00:00 AM

Crown Description:

We are looking for the correct pattern to replace the "You Fail X" titles.

Total posts: 494
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