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StillbirthMachine Heresiarch Command from The Womb ov Impurities Since: Mar, 2012
Heresiarch Command
#3826: May 28th 2012 at 1:35:06 AM

Although I do agree that songwriting does a good job in creating atmosphere, for me it makes little difference on whether a song is heavy or not. If you take any 30-second clip from this or this, it'll still be heavy, no matter how you look at it.

There was nothing "heavy" about either song as much as it simply being fast paced and having a "loud" modern production set at a fairly high speed. Same with Golem. Aggression/speed/having a louder production =/= heaviness. Perhaps if the heaviest thing you've heard is a Slipknot album it's understandable, but after a certain point, a lot of so-called heaviness becomes empty and illusion-like as after a while, you realize there's nothing behind it aside from cheap parlour tricks with nothing very concrete to hold it up.

By the way, I think the definition of "real heaviness" you provided us is my definition of "atmosphere", which is cool and all but I fail to see as heaviness (although it many times help tremendously, hence the Black Sabbath example).
Heaviness by itself isn't too distant from the idea of atmosphere as a form of aesthetic mood/feel anyways so in all honesty, is just a semantic case at times. At the same time, the actual movements a song goes through in its riffs and structures are things that are far better criteria for judging heaviness as they can often retain their power even if expressed through different mediums and are the actual inherent bare-bones elements the music is based off of. Heaviness by itself is the sum of a composition's many parts rather than merely isolating a single element. The heaviest riff stops sounding heavy if there's nothing to contrast it and show WHY it is heavy. Classic death metal bands did this incredibly well through having very varied riffs of differing "sizes" and filtering them through maze-like structures often with sharply altering speed to create heaviness as a sort of state rather than a small isolated part.

Atmosphere is just a fancier way of saying "what mental image this songs puts in my head" or alternatively "lots and lots of open tonal space".

Ok, so a heavy riff might not be synonymous with a heavy song, and neither does excess downtuning, agressiveness, constant monotonic chugging, blastbeating or growled vocals, but take a combination of some these elements (except the chugging, it can die in a fire) with the aforementioned atmosphere and songwriting and, depending on the proportions, you get something with substance, if done right. THAT's what the word "heavy metal" communicates to me.

I can agree with this in the general sense that there's no real specific way to create something heavy and it just happens sort of sporadically or naturally.

If this sense of otherworldy immensity or stuff like that is an integral part of metal, it sure isn't a metal thing alone, since I'm sure there are many classical and electronic songs with those characteristics... And you can't mistake those for heavy metal.

I had said before these were for the most part, aesthetic and surface-level qualities. Cool but not necessarily unique to metal in that heaviness has existed before it. Metal has a particular way of doing it but so do a lot of other forms of music.

edited 28th May '12 1:43:51 AM by StillbirthMachine

Only Death Is Real
Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#3827: May 28th 2012 at 5:56:52 AM

That said, a song doesn't have to have a heavy atmosphere to still be a great metal song.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
xexyzl Since: Jan, 2001
#3828: May 28th 2012 at 2:36:59 PM

So I picked up the semi-recent re-release of Isengard's Vinterskugge, which included a commentary disc with Fenriz talking over the tracks in his lovely thick accent. It was actually quite entertaining and informative, among the notable things I learned:

  • One of the Folk Metal tracks that is most closely associated with Isengard and helped launch the popularity of the sub-genre, Fanden Lokker til Stupet (Nytrad), Fenriz claimed was one of the worst songs on the album and that he felt sorry for any bands who were inspired by it since it was a crap song.
  • Fenriz said (possibly facetiously) that his heavily Burzum-inspired synth track In the Halls and Chambers of Stardust the Crystallic Heavens Open, is one of the best things he has ever made, and that it was essentially an early early experiment with a synthesizer that he didn't know how to play.
  • He can't remember any of the lyrics and never wrote them down. He suspects many of them may be gibberish. When people who cover songs off the album ask him for lyrics, he says he just writes them down as best he can and sends them to the band in question.
  • Storm of Evil was indeed meant to be a tribute to The Sisters of Mercy, however Fenriz has never owned a single Sisters of Mercy album. He is incredibly proud of these riffs (starting at 2:50).
  • He hasn't listened to Bergtrollets Gravferd more than a few times since the album was released, says it's probably the worst track on the album, so boring that he'd rather listen to Rammstein "and that's saying a lot!"
  • The synth on Naglfar is awful and you should never ever use it, though he admits that Enslaved used it to much greater effect than he did.
  • Our Lord Will Come is blatantly influenced by Pentagram.

edited 28th May '12 2:39:07 PM by xexyzl

StillbirthMachine Heresiarch Command from The Womb ov Impurities Since: Mar, 2012
Heresiarch Command
#3829: May 28th 2012 at 9:34:31 PM

Am I the only one who thinks the reason why he renounced his past works is because he's grown old, bitter, and disillusioned? He seems to be trying to distance himself from it all by saying it was all just a joke. Not that I'm a fan of their classic BM material but he honestly sounds like such a big sore loser now.

But oh god, ''Soulside Journey'' kills so hard. There's a compilation of all their pre-debut material that was pressed onto CD this year. It's pretty sweet.

edited 28th May '12 9:37:27 PM by StillbirthMachine

Only Death Is Real
xexyzl Since: Jan, 2001
#3830: May 28th 2012 at 10:03:20 PM

I mean he had plenty of nice things to say about Vinterskugge, the overall impression I got was that he considered it a mixed bag of experimental ideas, some of which panned out and some of which didn't. I'd agree with him too.

I've listened to that demo collection, great stuff if you're in the mood for garage production Death Metal. I too prefer most everything else Fenriz has done to Darkthrone's "Black Metal Trilogy" (although Transylvanian Hunger's title track is still pretty great).

edited 28th May '12 10:04:22 PM by xexyzl

Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#3831: Jun 2nd 2012 at 5:06:53 PM

Who else likes Eluveitie?

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#3833: Jun 3rd 2012 at 11:03:25 AM

One: Post stalking is creepy.

Two: I don't think anyone answered me two months ago.

Three: Revisiting topics isn't inherently bad.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
AsTheAnointed Since: Jan, 2010
#3834: Jun 3rd 2012 at 3:15:46 PM

One: Post stalking is creepy.

Flicking a few pages back to make sure one's response is justified isn't really 'post stalking'.

Two: I don't think anyone answered me two months ago.

Me and xexyzl both blatantly did. I even gave a positive response.

Three: Revisiting topics isn't inherently bad.

This is true, but even before your post Eluveitie came up a couple of times earlier in the thread so I think we'd like to start revisiting different topics by now tongue

StillbirthMachine Heresiarch Command from The Womb ov Impurities Since: Mar, 2012
Heresiarch Command
#3835: Jun 4th 2012 at 10:15:47 PM

So the new Hour Of 13 album came out and it's sounding pretty good.

Only Death Is Real
djbj Since: Oct, 2010
#3836: Jun 6th 2012 at 11:20:58 AM

Attention metalheads! There's currently a TRS thread open about how to fix the Metal Scream page and it's had barely any activity since it was created. We could use your input to help get the thread moving again.

peccantis Since: Oct, 2010
#3837: Jun 12th 2012 at 10:00:15 AM

Just a little thing...

What would "melodic dronecore" sound like? ^_^

Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#3838: Jun 16th 2012 at 1:07:34 PM

Shit.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
peccantis Since: Oct, 2010
#3839: Jun 18th 2012 at 3:04:56 AM

[up] Wow, so helpful. Every musical genre in this world sounds shit.

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#3840: Jun 18th 2012 at 10:39:35 PM

you're talking to metalheads, of course they think everything is shit :P

it's like a rule or something.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Rareitor Mad Doctor from the house of cards. Since: Jul, 2010 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Mad Doctor
#3841: Jun 19th 2012 at 8:12:17 AM

So OCR released a new remix album, gave it a download yesterday and... well it's not bad!

Also: track 8 of the second CD - give it a listen

EDIT: Manowar's Lord of Steel is good as background noise.

EDIT 2: what in all of the possible fucks is wrong with the bass on this album?, it sounds like static distortion at worse.

edited 19th Jun '12 9:05:40 AM by Rareitor

OH GOD WHY AM I A CAR!? - Forzare
Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#3842: Jun 20th 2012 at 6:50:02 PM

Oh great and hardcore Sages of Metal! I need your guidance! I want to show my girlfriend the evolution of metal. . . Chronologically. I need a song from every year since the very beginning of metal that demonstrates the progression of metal. And then several songs for each subgenre of metal- NOT any bullshit Nu Metal or Whatevercore or other bullshit.

THROW ME YOUR BEST!

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#3843: Jun 20th 2012 at 9:52:31 PM

*mentally imagines all the genres of metal*

*Laughs hysterically*

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#3844: Jun 20th 2012 at 10:01:09 PM

Yes, this is going to be an EXTENSIVE project.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
DemonSharkKisame Since: May, 2009
#3845: Jun 20th 2012 at 11:56:39 PM

Huh... seems Aspid's risen from the dead with a new song.

pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#3846: Jun 21st 2012 at 11:28:10 AM

Not sure why I didn't appreciate Akercocke before (vocals, maybe; I'm not too keen on either really low-pitched growling or black metal style shrieking), but Antichrist is a superb album. This is probably my favourite song off it.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
StillbirthMachine Heresiarch Command from The Womb ov Impurities Since: Mar, 2012
Heresiarch Command
#3847: Jun 21st 2012 at 1:42:33 PM

@Exelixi: Tbqh, you're better off just using the latter idea. If you want to know the history of metal, it's going to take a while and just listening to a few select songs won't give you that much of a clear picture.

@Demon Shark Kirisame: This is actually pretty neat. They've modernized a bit but as long as they don't turn into that pants-on-head retarded djent bullshit, I'm fine.

Only Death Is Real
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#3848: Jun 21st 2012 at 2:00:11 PM

Just a little thing...

What would "melodic dronecore" sound like? ^_^

I'm not particularly fond of a lot of the silly nomenclature surrounding metal fusion genres, but I gather that what you're trying to describe here is drone metal with an emphasis on melody. Maybe Earth circa Pentastar would foot the bill...?

edited 21st Jun '12 2:00:22 PM by JHM

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
AsTheAnointed Since: Jan, 2010
#3849: Jun 21st 2012 at 2:51:46 PM

I hadn't thought of that, but I reckon you'd be right. Honestly I reckon some post-metal could fit the descriptor too.

NEO from Qrrbrbirlbel Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
#3850: Jun 21st 2012 at 4:50:34 PM

@Exelixi: http://mapofmetal.com

Many subgenres filled with examples here. Yeah, there's those what you call "bullshit" subgenres there, but it's easy to filter out.

No regret shall pass over the threshold!

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