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KingNerd Can-I-Bus from Suburbia. Since: Dec, 1969
Can-I-Bus
#3777: May 13th 2012 at 9:03:55 AM

[up]They are still Metal so they can be discussed here and not on the Alternative Metal thread.

The smartest idiot you will ever meet.
NoMoreSanity Since: Jun, 2009
#3778: May 13th 2012 at 9:07:14 AM

It is one of Sabaton's slower songs, second single from their upcoming album. It's good, but not nearly as good as Carolus Rex, the first single. My reaction to Carolus Rex is basically OH MY GOD, I CAN'T STOP CUMMING!'

edited 13th May '12 9:08:08 AM by NoMoreSanity

Lordnecronus dOOOOM from Wales Since: Sep, 2009
dOOOOM
#3779: May 13th 2012 at 9:24:26 AM

[up][up] Whether they are metal or not is very, very debatable; whether they are alt-metal or not, on the other hand, is not debatable, so it's better to bring them up in the latter thread.

last.fm | RYM
KingNerd Can-I-Bus from Suburbia. Since: Dec, 1969
Can-I-Bus
#3780: May 13th 2012 at 10:16:46 AM

[up][up]EW...

The smartest idiot you will ever meet.
InmostLight Pretty Little Horse from The Carnival Since: May, 2012
Pretty Little Horse
#3781: May 13th 2012 at 10:35:59 AM

Rage Against The Machine?

Horrible repetitive band salvaged (only somewhat) by Tom Morello. /discussion

edited 13th May '12 3:44:46 PM by InmostLight

This is the age of decay and democrazy What is the price of your soul?
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#3782: May 13th 2012 at 10:56:40 AM

Well, nice to see I'm not the only Sabaton fan here.

NoMoreSanity Since: Jun, 2009
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
StillbirthMachine Heresiarch Command from The Womb ov Impurities Since: Mar, 2012
Heresiarch Command
#3785: May 14th 2012 at 6:24:26 PM

I've never understood why RATM somehow get a "metal" tag when perhaps the only really metal thing about them is occasionally some of their production values.

In other news, there's a new Hour Of 13 album on the way. For those not familiar, imagine Judas Priest circa Sad Wings of Destiny or Sin after Sin meeting Pagan Altar and you'd get the following. It doesn't seem as doomy as their previous material but it kills regardless. Also has a much more morbid occult/horror theme.

edited 14th May '12 6:24:40 PM by StillbirthMachine

Only Death Is Real
MidnightRambler Ich bin nicht schuld! 's ist Gottes Plan! from Germania Inferior Since: Mar, 2011
Muzozavr Since: Jan, 2001
#3787: May 15th 2012 at 2:09:06 PM

Metal experts, please tell me this:

1) What subgenre of metal is this? It's like a song from Sunn O)))'s "Black One" but with an actual melody (and a good one, too) on top of the slow, droning bass riffs. 2) Is there anything else similar to this song? 3) actually, there's no third question, so I'll just use this space to say that this track is totally awesome.

ERROR: Signature not loaded
Lordnecronus dOOOOM from Wales Since: Sep, 2009
dOOOOM
#3788: May 15th 2012 at 2:39:30 PM

I'd pretty much just call that drone. Doesn't really sound like a metal song to me, more like some heavy as fuck drone / shoegaze crossover. Kinda reminds me of Nadja, and by extension The Angelic Process. I don't consider either band to be metal so I guess this is off-topic, but if you want something similar to that song both are worth checking out.

last.fm | RYM
Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#3789: May 15th 2012 at 10:00:35 PM

It's that one subgenre of metal that isn't.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#3790: May 15th 2012 at 10:37:16 PM

Perhaps it's up for debate as to whether or not drone à la Sunn O))) is or is not metal, but I honestly find the debate itself to be kind of moronic. When it comes down to it, "metal" is pretty nebulous.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
AsTheAnointed Since: Jan, 2010
#3791: May 16th 2012 at 12:05:02 AM

That's true, but I don't think music without drums can be metal. Percussive, rhythmic qualities are intrinsic to being 'heavy' IMO, so while bands like Sunn 0))) are certainly extreme, I wouldn't define them as metal per se at least from what I've heard (although AFAIK they may have music which isn't beatless, and would hence would be qualified under my most likely apocryphal criteria as 'metal').

Not that being metal matters for shit.

edited 16th May '12 12:17:17 AM by AsTheAnointed

Lordnecronus dOOOOM from Wales Since: Sep, 2009
dOOOOM
#3792: May 16th 2012 at 3:19:46 AM

The drone part isn't what makes me question the "metalness" of Nadja and TAP, since there's a fair bit of drone that I do consider to be metal; it's more that those two bands sound more like really, really heavy shoegaze to me. They still wipe the floor with 99% of all music regardless of their genre, of course.

Genre arguments are definitely pointless, but if you're incredibly pedantic like I am then they can be pretty fun from time to time.

last.fm | RYM
Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto Since: Jul, 2009
Proud Canadian
#3793: May 19th 2012 at 9:54:40 AM

I'm actually really enjoying Hammerheart here (fitting my avatar) and will get some more Bathory. Gonna get some Agollach too.

edited 19th May '12 10:00:49 AM by Erock

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
StillbirthMachine Heresiarch Command from The Womb ov Impurities Since: Mar, 2012
Heresiarch Command
#3794: May 19th 2012 at 12:19:23 PM

I don't really hear much "metal" if any in it aside from once again, production values and the odd technique or two. If anything, it sounds like nothing more than just "experimental" guitar noises that pop up in stranger metal bands now and then only used for the entire song. In all honesty metal in the general "pure" forms, the pillars of the style (trad/death/doom/black/thrash/possibly power) are pretty easily defined and make up the core but beyond that is when we start getting into genres that are either minor deviations, marketing terms, simply soundalikes attempting to latch onto metal and so on. This is a genre that is in many ways best understood through a combined historical and musical lineage.

I do believe that the problem of constantly "opening up" the genre to outsiders (nu/mallcore, alternative, drone, post/indie, stoner etc.) is that it ultimately waters down and makes the true meaning/spirit of the actual thing subsequently weaker as it is changed to fit the needs and wants of marketers, record labels, and people who in a lot of ways, aren't really even metalheads and just want "something else that looks like metal but isn't."

Sometimes we just call these folks hipsters.

edited 19th May '12 12:29:25 PM by StillbirthMachine

Only Death Is Real
Exelixi Lesbarian from Alchemist's workshop Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Lesbarian
#3795: May 19th 2012 at 12:25:06 PM

Sir, there are many things about metal upon which I disagree with you.

That was not one of them.

Mura: -flips the bird to veterinary science with one hand and Euclidean geometry with the other-
NEO from Qrrbrbirlbel Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
#3796: May 19th 2012 at 5:13:39 PM

[up][up] So you're suggesting no genres should ever spawn from "true" metal? And that any attempt on doing this is solely marketing on the "metal" label?

No regret shall pass over the threshold!
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#3797: May 19th 2012 at 5:20:02 PM

[up][up][up] To be perfectly honest, a lot of what people perceive musically as being definitively "metal" in the modern sense has more in common with Black Flag than Black Sabbath, particularly when it comes to tempo and attitude. Doom metal may be the exception, but even then the approach is totally different.

@Lord Necronus: I can accept that. I really only take issue with saying something is "un-metal" when it seems to be a purely derogatory or snobby swipe at the music in question, which I consider to be trite and stupid; you are clearly not doing that, and really don't seem the kind of person to do so, so that's fine.

Also, Nadja are indeed pretty shoegazey. It's weird, how many bands seem to be jumping on the bandwagon of fusing heavy rock and shoegazing elements of late. Not that it's a bad thing per se...

[up] I, too, question that logic.

edited 19th May '12 5:25:15 PM by JHM

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
StillbirthMachine Heresiarch Command from The Womb ov Impurities Since: Mar, 2012
Heresiarch Command
#3798: May 19th 2012 at 7:28:02 PM

So you're suggesting no genres should ever spawn from "true" metal? And that any attempt on doing this is solely marketing on the "metal" label?

Or perhaps that actual legitimate development within the genre for the most part is obscured by a mixture of retarded record labels who simply need to help market their new cash-cows by essentially re-creating the history and spirit of the genre in such a way that supports what they wish for it to be and that musically, a lot of what is called "metal" nowadays is little more than cheap imitation art at the very best and at the worst, simply a great example of what happens when historical revisionism is allowed to alter the identity of a form of music in the name of keeping it "hip" and "accessible".

Genres for the most part take a while to be born and for the most part, never truly stop growing. Of course most people won't believe this because they're beat over the head with the idea that everything is in a constant state of "stagnation" and things must constantly be "renewed" in the form of some new trendy rehash of the same-old same-old or otherwise modifying the genre so it's basically "music for people who normally don't like this sort of music" material that can't decide whatever the hell it wants to be.

@JHM: For the most part, most people in my experience assume stuff like Disturbed, Rammstein, Iwrestledabearonce, Killswitch Engage, Mastodon, Pantera and so on are "metal". Not that some of these aren't but it's a sign that most of what comprises people's knowledge of this genre is a mixture of being poorly informed and not knowing it beyond whatever's vomited down their throats by flavour-of-the-month piles of crap like Decibel, Revolver, and sometimes even morons at Pitchfork.

In my experience, "un-metal" has been used towards actual metal/metal-soundalike bands for the simple mistake of doing a piss-poor job of capturing what's good about metal or even sounding like it. In a time and age when many people think the genre can only be good if it sounds like something other than metal, it shouldn't be surprising.

edited 19th May '12 7:38:36 PM by StillbirthMachine

Only Death Is Real
NEO from Qrrbrbirlbel Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
#3799: May 19th 2012 at 8:33:16 PM

I'm under the impression that your definition of "metal" is confined to subgenres born up until the 80's.

Now let's be honest here, dismissing everything originated from the more traditional metal (and I'll keep using that term for what you call "true metal") as cash-ins is an extremely biased point of view; music does not work this way and never will. It expands with time. I'd rather not enter the debate on whether a band really does metal or not (although I might add, isn't excluding Pantera going a bit too far?), but it's pretty obvious that those bands you're accusing of being not metal are, at the very least, just attempting to do something that's obviously based on traditional metal, without being traditional... And I can't see anything wrong with that.

I guess your main problem isn't with those sounds existing as much as they being plastered with the "metal" label, am I right? Well... In that case, The Beatles are also offenders, since it doesn't sound anything like Elvis' and Chuck Berry's Rock and Roll. And the list goes on...

sigh... I bet if someone invented a different, "metal-less" name for every genre based on traditional metal, people would still complain. Let's face it, it's impossible to separate them completely from metal... They would all go "it's just almost metal with a fancy name!".

edited 19th May '12 8:34:05 PM by NEO

No regret shall pass over the threshold!
StillbirthMachine Heresiarch Command from The Womb ov Impurities Since: Mar, 2012
Heresiarch Command
#3800: May 19th 2012 at 8:42:49 PM

Genres that have continued on into the modern day and still develop and put out works that are just as great as anything from a supposed classic era.

To add to that, genres that by themselves are merely umbrellas for sub-genres, regional styles, and alternate interpretations that allow for a greater amount of depth than any wikipedia article would imply.

I don't hate everything that's not classic metal - for example, power metal in the way most people see it is a more "modern" genre and Dream Theater and Symphony X's brand of progressive metal goes under that category as well. However, for the most part "modern metal" as a whole has failed. As for the other bands (I see Pantera as a metal band, just not a very good one), all the "metal" they have in many cases is often little more than merely show and flash, no substance behind it. Add in a few jumpdafuckups, "shouting" vocals, chugging and "PEW PEW PEW" leads does not make a band suddenly "metal" - these are little more than bands made from the scraps of hip-hop, grunge, alternative rock, pop-punk and so on that accumulated at the doorsteps.

And just like you say, "music doesn't work that way" - anyone can put on the clothes of a businessman, soldier, politician, chef and so on but it won't mean anything if they don't have the skills. There is nothing "traditional" about Disturbed, As I Lay Dying, Pantera, Rammstein, Avenged Sevenfold, Rage Against The Machine and so on. There is none of doom metal's penchant for simple dead-man's-hand trudge riffs that loom ominously and guide a song in simple but forceful movements. There is none of straight up heavy metal's elegant leadwork and nowadays relatively stripped down melodic riffing. There is none of thrash metal's eye for post-classic-hardcore-punk inspired whipping strum rhythms. There is none of death metal's alien and intimidating atonal aggression and twisting, maze-like structures or black metal's un-emphasis on rhythms and near-ambient guitar strum.

By dressing up more and more bands that have nothing much to do with metal aside from aesthetic, all you have is a genre that weakens over time, one that panders to increasingly lower common denominators, to people who don't want metal for what it is, and simply want it dumbed down so it can be theirs.

This is called "regression". Just because it's new and that Hot Topic sells its merchandise and that clueless rock journalists are calling it a breath of fresh air suddenly doesn't mean it's actually progressing a genre.

The only reason why they're hard to separate is for the most part is because in all honesty, even the majority of the metal fanbase don't know what makes the genre what it is and its own history.

edited 19th May '12 9:00:59 PM by StillbirthMachine

Only Death Is Real

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