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MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#254276: Mar 6th 2021 at 4:51:47 PM

[up]He's a parody of a person who doesn't actually exist outside of the minds of weird shitty nerds and channers.

Just because you've personally never encountered a group of people doesn't mean they don't exist.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
RhymeBeat Bird mom from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Bird mom
#254277: Mar 6th 2021 at 4:59:28 PM

The thing is that Kankri isn't criticizing Alternia. He's criticizing Beforus. Beforus is in no way a perfect society, but it doesn't have the SAME problems as Alternia. In fact Beforus is really hard to talk about because it's existence is something that hasn't ever happened IRL. A society that not only supports but outright coddles the lower classes. And if that was the heart of Kankri's criticism, his criticism would make sense. But it isn't. It's all about words and ideas with him, very little about actions. As for Kankri being the lowest of the low... While that would certainly be true on Alternia, we can assume it isn't on Beforus. He doesn't have a sign because he still exists outside the usual sign alphabet. But other than that he's either an average lowblood citizen (who get coddled) or a disabled person (who also gets coddled).

There's a reason the comic doesn't make fun of the Sufferer and makes fun of Kankri instead. Even though they're technically the same person, the Sufferer responds to the ACTUAL problems in society, while Kankri doesn't.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#254278: Mar 6th 2021 at 5:02:24 PM

Yes, it takes all types to make up a world. People who eat poop and like it, people that go to movie theaters just to buy the popcorn, people who enjoy playing Pokemon but only capture one new Pokemon on every new route, give them nicknames, and release Pokemon who have lost a battle.

That, however, does not mean these people aren't a boogyman, trumped up to look all scary but don't actually exist in any significant numbers to justify pulling them out whenever somebody mentions Tumblr or social justice or painting them as the face of these things.

Or, to put it another way, yes, there are black criminals. It is ridiculous to lock your car because a black person walked by and try to justify it by saying that a black person once stole an unlocked car.

Yes, there are people who call themselves feminists but express horrible opinions. No, these people do not actually exist in any large numbers to say that "feminism has problems".

Edit: It's a problem of focusing too much on the extremists, the weirdos and wackos, and trying to make some generalization or general point about them. Setting fire to a sterotype, really.

Edited by fredhot16 on Mar 6th 2021 at 5:25:08 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
RaichuKFM Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons. from Where she's at Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons.
#254279: Mar 6th 2021 at 5:57:40 PM

As someone who spent too much time on Tumblr circa 2015 arguing in circles against people thinking prejudice and double standards were good and morally righteous so long as they were aimed at [insert non-minority race, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation here] because they were committed to argument structures that were sometimes valid as large-level descriptions of overall social power dynamics, but could not validly be extended into discrete separate standards of moral rules applicable to individuals depending on their social groups, people like Kankri aren't bogeymen. That kind of ideology exists, and it exists in fairly large concentrations in some corners of the internet, and yes, social justice Tumblr spaces were and probably still spaces with a fair number of those corners.

They weren't just random faceless people on the internet, either; I've had to fight uphill with friends to make them understand that prejudice about groups nobody can choose to be a part of is categorically wrong. I've had to argue to a long-term friend that it was legitimate of me to be upset to hear them insulting "straight white boys" as a block, to me, who thought I was one at the time. Social privilege is real and important, yes, but it doesn't make individuals immune to being told hurtful things or dismissed by arguments that can be common in circles. (And subsequently finding out I'm actually a gay white girl hasn't actually changed my mind about any of that, incidentally.)

The ideas Kankri is parodying exist, and on non-negligible scale, and it's a harmful ideology. Is it nearly as harmful an ideology as most other forms of racism, sexism, etc. prevalent in the world? No. Would it be silly to pass it off as the primary problem in society? Definitely. Would it be horrible to use its existence to discredit the ideas its a perversion of? Absolutely. Is that what writing one character parodying this problem is doing or saying? No, of course not.

People who think in these kinds of flawed ways can act like jerks because of it, and that's what Kankri is shown to be. A jerk. He's not a bogeyman, he's a guy who is wrong and an ass about it. It's not that deep.

Look, can we not have a proxy argument about whether the Tumblr SJW stereotype is real or a fabrication? People like the Tumblr SJW stereotype exist, people like the 4Chan stereotype exist, and the latter love to pretend any and all feminists or similar are the former to blanket discredit them and feed their own victim complexes; it's possible to see through that ridiculous lazy smokescreen without going "Ah this toxic ideology they're complaining about must not actually exist in any way at all". It's, like, the barest shred of nuance, to admit that sometimes people are dumb and bad on the internet, even ones that are trying to argue for obviously correct ideas.

Can we go back to talking about Homestuck before we all get thumped?

Edited by RaichuKFM on Mar 6th 2021 at 8:59:36 AM

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#254280: Mar 6th 2021 at 5:59:49 PM

...We seem to be pretty civil so far.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
RaichuKFM Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons. from Where she's at Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons.
#254281: Mar 6th 2021 at 6:01:56 PM

Oh I'm expecting an off-topic thump, not an uncivil thump.

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#254282: Mar 6th 2021 at 6:02:24 PM

[up][up]Rule of thumb: Always assume the mods are overly strict.

Edited by MightyMatilda on Mar 6th 2021 at 9:11:34 AM

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#254283: Mar 6th 2021 at 6:06:56 PM

[up][up]Even then, we're only, like, two or three posts off from being strictly about Homestuck. I don't think conversation shift is a problem unless we go off for like, nine pages.

Edit: Also, I caught that last paragraph and...I did say that stupid people exist, right? That was the point of my beginning spiel? So, yes, I can understand "the very basics of nuance" and have made no denial that stupid people exist.

Just want to get that clear because it seems you had to ignore that point to make that statement and that's...kinda irritating.

[up]Well, that seems rude.

Edited by fredhot16 on Mar 6th 2021 at 6:12:30 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
RaichuKFM Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons. from Where she's at Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons.
#254284: Mar 6th 2021 at 6:11:51 PM

Yeah, that part was not directed at you, you had made yourself clear on that.

I might be overcautious with the thump-worriedness? It's been a while since I've seen it happen so I'm rusty on what tends to qualify. I said my piece in any case if anyone else feels the need to continue the topic.

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#254285: Mar 6th 2021 at 6:13:10 PM

[up]Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Edit: I guess it also depends on how well-patrolled a thread is and if somebody wants to try to call a moderator on a thread being "off-topic". I've seen it happen a couple of times but I feel it either requires somebody to make a call or for it to be truly egregious, like pages worth.

Edited by fredhot16 on Mar 6th 2021 at 6:15:39 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#254286: Mar 6th 2021 at 6:26:01 PM

This thread has gotten closed a lot in the past times

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Druplesnubb Editor of Posts Since: Dec, 2013
Editor of Posts
#254287: Mar 7th 2021 at 8:40:02 AM

Rule of thumb: Always assume the mods are overly strict.
Don't you mean rule of thump?

Edited by Druplesnubb on Mar 7th 2021 at 5:40:45 PM

Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#254288: Mar 7th 2021 at 7:43:45 PM

I dont think kankri was of the lowest class in beforus. wouldnt he be one of the more protected people of beforus where the high bloods had to take care of the low bloods? he probably got coddled so much from being so special

RhymeBeat Bird mom from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Bird mom
#254289: Mar 8th 2021 at 12:54:47 AM

That's exactly what I said. Karkat and the Sufferer were vulnerable minorities. Kankri was not. There's no indication that Kankri has ever faced real discrimination in his life. Notably, Kankri hemotypes. He doesn't need to hide his blood color at all.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
Medinoc Chaotic Greedy from France Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Chaotic Greedy
#254290: Mar 8th 2021 at 5:32:04 AM

When it comes to the Trickster mode incident, I recall a part that not everyone seem to, it's that while the "I feel so CAUCASIAN" line was the first time it was mentioned in-comic, I remember Andrew Hussie had blogged some days/weeks earlier "All Tricksters are canonically Caucasian" so the Jane's line itself didn't surprise me.

Edited by Medinoc on Mar 8th 2021 at 2:32:47 PM

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#254291: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:10:59 AM

It's just the sort of weird, off-kilter humor that Hussie wouldn't really try nowadays. Also, great posts there Raichu, well argued.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
RaichuKFM Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons. from Where she's at Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Nine thousand nine hundred eighty-two reasons.
#254293: Mar 8th 2021 at 10:57:57 AM

Oh, thanks Ninety!

I do also want to say, Kankri has faced discrimination. Being coddled, being treated like you are a child who cannot do things on your own, and having your freedom and independence limited, purely because of blood color, is discrimination.

He hemotypes and doesn't hide his blood color, yes, but uh... He didn't have a religious sect preparing a crabdad to hide him and keep it secret for him until he was old enough to do so himself. Kankri's bright red wriggler would get him labeled from the start. What chance to hide it did he possibly have?

Kankri has faced real problems, it's just his response to them and other issues he saw was... You know.

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.
RhymeBeat Bird mom from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Bird mom
#254294: Mar 8th 2021 at 12:01:17 PM

Ironically Kankri's response to that is kinda to demand MORE coddling, pretty much

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#254295: Mar 8th 2021 at 4:32:03 PM

The discussion on Kankri prompted me to go back and listen to a couple of Pgenpod episodes that talk about him

Episode 25: The Ballet of the Dancestors (w/ Cro) (Transcript)

Episode 69: ♋️

And episode 25 led me to rereading this analysis on Openbound: The Ridiculous Adventures of MSPA Reader in Hussnasty Hell

Vadara Since: Dec, 2020
#254296: Mar 9th 2021 at 10:50:55 PM

I am at page 7810 out of 8130. Wow. This last stretch has been really damn good. So many characters meeting. So many heartfelt emotional dialogues.

I really hope this comic sticks the landing and doesn't crash and burn in some currently undefinable way. Certainly not in the way where it would end with a 190,000-word novel and an airquotes-sequel not even written by the original mind behind the comic!

But that's not gonna happen, of course. That sure would make the 8K-page epic feel like a horrible waste in the end!

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#254297: Mar 10th 2021 at 4:37:04 AM

  • whistles unconvincingly*

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Vadara Since: Dec, 2020
#254298: Mar 10th 2021 at 3:47:14 PM

But seriously I'm really worried about when The Shitty Part happens and the entire comic apparently nosedives into irredeemably bad garbage like everyone has warned.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#254299: Mar 10th 2021 at 4:04:00 PM

I don't think the ending is shitty. Somewhat underwhelming, sure. But it isn't really a crash and burn.

Gilphon Untrustworthy from The Third Sound Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Untrustworthy
#254300: Mar 10th 2021 at 4:04:41 PM

[up][up]Ehh. That's not really how it plays out. Like everyone has different takes on exactly what bits were worse than others, but the general consensus is that Act 6 isn't quite as good as Act 5. But you're already past every claimed 'this is where the quality took a nosedive' bit in Act 6.

It's just that a bunch of smaller plot threads were left unresolved in the original ending, and we were promised that we'd get an epilogue to address some of that. Which we did, years later. And the epilogues are a whole Thing onto themselves. I don't know if I'd even call them bad so much as definitely not what the fandom had spent those years waiting for.

And then Homestuck^2 happened, which, if I'm being honest, wishes it was as good as Act 6, and even envies the epilogues their relative success at times.

Edited by Gilphon on Mar 10th 2021 at 7:05:15 AM

"Canada Day is over, and now begins the endless dark of the Canada Night."

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