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Let's Write a Constitution for a Hypothetical Nation

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RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#351: Oct 7th 2010 at 3:32:14 PM

ಠ_ಠ

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#353: Oct 7th 2010 at 4:00:33 PM

BH: ...and pork is a good thing, now? Also that model you present is laughable. You're basically making factors up so they agree with your analysis. Like presuming that people's stance on issues is like a hand of cards, i.e. made up of completely unrelated factors, evenly distributed at random. And you include a very small number of issues (5, there are less issues than there are parties) which essentially means the system has no granularity. And you presume that people evaluate all their political issues equally, which is obviously untrue. And you presume that all issues are issues to all people. It's a blatantly terrible model producing blatantly terrible, counter-intuitive results.

A better approximate model: Consider an irregular, n-dimensional 'political space,' where n is the number of issues. Voters inhabit this space, and they aren't evenly distributed; rather, they are clustered around certain areas. Now, parties will present party lines which also inhabit this political space, as well as ranges of possible opinion - forming 'party tents' that are also irregular, n-dimensional constructs, possibly overlapping and seeking to cover most of the space. Parties try to move their centre towards a highly populated region of the space. Now, your likely-hood of being inside a 'party tent' is generally irrespective of the number of parties, because the less parties, the bigger the tents. However, if there are more parties, then the average distance between a voter and a 'party centre' is smaller, and population groups in the political space don't need to be as big in order to be 'sought out' by a party centre. Hence, the party you find yourself in is smaller and you have more in common with its members; and the 'centre' of that party is more appealing to you.

Yes, there is a subset of voters positioned so that Party A agrees with them just as much as Party B; and there is a subset of those voters whose priorities don't break the tie between the parties. But the lists are open, so those voters can still vote on the merits of the individual candidates.

edited 7th Oct '10 4:01:04 PM by BonSequitur

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BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#354: Oct 7th 2010 at 8:14:19 PM

1: Yeah, pork's a good thing; how else would you propose paying for things? Money has to go somewhere, and if your representatives are doing their jobs it goes to you.

2: I designed the model to be mathematically nice, because I came up with it on the spur of the moment for an argument. I did not design it to be biased towards me. In fact your two accusations counter each other; if I was biasing it towards my views, I would have made more issues than there were parties, because that would've made all the parties taken together represent a tiny, tiny amount of the population.

I admit that if I was a professional political scientist I would make it much more detailed, but this is an argument on the internet; a reasonable approximation is more than enough.

No challenges to the technical parts of your model; the problems I have with it are:

  1. You still are failing to consider that "MA should get money" is an issue, and one that no party takes a position on for fear of losing most of the country,
  2. individual personalities of politicians do matter; there are for example many people in the US who did not vote for McCain solely because Palin clearly did not know what she was doing totally irrespective of any policies she held  Incidentally,.
  3. Given a sufficient number of issues, and there of course are a sufficient number of issues, most random individuals will not be adequately represented by any existing party. This should happen even if parties tend to gather around clusters of opinion; there are always many people who have patterns of opinion which do not fit any party. In fact I would argue most people would be sufficiently distant from the center of any party that no party would adequately represent them.

BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#355: Oct 7th 2010 at 8:23:09 PM

Generally, you want to elect a Parliament that will be able to discuss, prioritize, and mediate between local needs to find who needs federal money the most. As opposed to having them fighting over who gets a new bridge.

1. Other parts of the system can serve to demand federal concessions to local interests. There's no need for the Parliament representation model to be beholden to this issue. Besides, running on a local platform is a valid electoral strategy in proportional models anyway.

2. Hence the open list system. It's also generally expected that running alongside idiots hurts a candidate's chances for election.

3. Voters aren't random. Your model expects that a majority of people in any given country aren't represented by any party, and that is pretty clearly not true. The reason for this is that people's opinion on issues tends to emanate from a fairly cohesive worldview; there are people who think financial markets should be completely unregulated and the government should nationalise health care, but those people are rare, because those views are more or less contradictory.

edited 7th Oct '10 8:32:17 PM by BonSequitur

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#356: Oct 7th 2010 at 8:23:18 PM

Pork is a bad thing because it let's bullshit pass on important legislation. If it can't pass on it's own, it's probably not worth passing.

Fight smart, not fair.
redrosary We are as one. from Res Publica Philippinae Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Cigarettes and Valentines
We are as one.
#357: Oct 8th 2010 at 8:01:00 AM

Concerning pork, my stand on the matter would be this: If legislation is worth porking for, then by all means give it pork, otherwise why should we?

edited 8th Oct '10 8:01:23 AM by redrosary

The Southpaw has no brakes!
BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#358: Oct 8th 2010 at 8:23:15 AM

Having been on the wrong end of the pork stick all my life, I somewhat resent it as a concept, but I realise why it's necessary. But the district system is a horrid way of providing federal funding for local programs, because it simply gives each district an advocate for its own federal funding, on equal standing with every other advocate, irrespective of whether the district needs it or not. I mean, look at the US. New York City has more representatives to ask for pork than all the poor rural communities in Nebraska. Districts' position in the battle for pork are determined largely by the seniority of their representative, which is effectively random. And pork is sought out by everyone, constantly, regardless of how necessary it is, resulting in bridges to nowhere. And it's only this constant, pork-seeking behaviour which produces voter expectations of pork, because 'pork' as it is in the US is largely an Anglo phenomenon. Under proportional representation, those localities that do need federal aid turn it into an issue, and those that don't, don't, thus resulting in a system which properly mediates those inputs and is more likely to direct resources to where they are needed.

edited 8th Oct '10 8:25:59 AM by BonSequitur

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DasAuto Sapere Aude from Eastphalia Since: Jul, 2009
Sapere Aude
#359: Oct 8th 2010 at 9:08:00 AM

The big advantage that a district system would grant is that the people of every district would have "thier representative" as a go-to guy. One other advantage is the the representatives are guatanteed to be from all over the country instead of being mostly from the same capital city area, which is going to happen if every party has one big list for the entire country.

It was tried to combine both Systems in Germany. Successful so far, although there seem to be some problems. Mathematical problems.

edited 8th Oct '10 9:09:03 AM by DasAuto

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick.SF Debris
BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#360: Oct 8th 2010 at 9:15:38 AM

But again, the point is, for liberals living in a conservative constituency, the local MP is not 'their representative.' They didn't vote for him, and he's not beholden to them because they're not his voters.

And, in practice, proportional representation does not lead to geographical concentration of candidates, because, again, local candidates are highly viable. Voters will vote for and identify with a 'local' that is heavily campaigning in one region. Indeed, in those systems, most candidates run local campaigns, because running a national campaign is beyond their means. And those local campaigns will tend to cover the whole country, because a community without a local representative is essentially an electoral opportunity. The community-representative relationship does exist in proportional systems, it just isn't institutionalised, and its informality does indeed help prevent a lot of aberrations.

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DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#361: Oct 8th 2010 at 11:56:56 AM

Well, most of these problems were why I proposed the council system in the first place. Just sayin'. It seems that as soon as you go to formal representatives you lose some aspect of representation, either because no party perfectly represents you or because your local district representative doesn't perfectly represents you. It seems to me that district representation forces the representatives to focus on local issues, to the benefit of everyone in the district, irregardless of party affiliation or ideological orientation. On the other hand, it also forces localities to compete with each other for limited national level support, to the detriment of the losers (this is the "pork" thing). Who wins and who loses will depend on factors other than the merits, such as the skill and experience of the particular representative involved. A better solution is to decentralize as many governing functions to the local legislative bodies as possible, leaving the national level with very little to do. But we still have to make a decision. We've heard from Seq and Humor, how about the rest of you?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#362: Oct 9th 2010 at 12:41:50 PM

You know, councils are still tied with the council-representative hybrid.

And personally I still think a council system would work better than a representative system.

DasAuto Sapere Aude from Eastphalia Since: Jul, 2009
Sapere Aude
#363: Oct 9th 2010 at 12:44:41 PM

Oh right, we still have the councils. Then we don't need districts for the other house anymore.

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick.SF Debris
CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#364: Oct 9th 2010 at 1:08:40 PM

Have you guys actually come up with any particular part of this hypothetical constitution?

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#365: Oct 9th 2010 at 1:09:41 PM

Nope!

We're still arguing about stuff we decided five pages ago! tongue

CommandoDude Since: Jun, 2010
#366: Oct 9th 2010 at 1:21:24 PM

You could at least try starting with a Preamble or something.

AlirozTheConfused Bibliophile. from Daz Huat! Since: May, 2010
Bibliophile.
#367: Oct 9th 2010 at 1:25:13 PM

Like this?

Us individuals of hypothetica, to accomplish a goal of unity and to institute good authority, do establish the following laws in this Constitution: [[insert laws here]]

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#368: Oct 9th 2010 at 1:35:10 PM

A constitution isn't law, it's metalaw.

RawPower Jesus as in Revelations from Barcelona Since: Aug, 2009
Jesus as in Revelations
#369: Oct 9th 2010 at 1:37:34 PM

the following supreme law?

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#370: Oct 9th 2010 at 1:38:13 PM

"this Constitution" oughta do fine by itself.

AlirozTheConfused Bibliophile. from Daz Huat! Since: May, 2010
Bibliophile.
#371: Oct 9th 2010 at 1:49:09 PM

So, like this?

Us individuals of hypothetica, to accomplish a purpose of unity and institute good authority, do establish this Constitution and its supreme metalaws: [[insert laws here]]

edited 9th Oct '10 1:53:53 PM by AlirozTheConfused

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.
BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#372: Oct 9th 2010 at 2:29:36 PM

"Us individuals of hypothetica, to accomplish a purpose of unity and institute good authority, do establish this Constitution" should work fine.

AlirozTheConfused Bibliophile. from Daz Huat! Since: May, 2010
Bibliophile.
#373: Oct 9th 2010 at 2:36:25 PM

Okay, now to make a constitution format for each of the proposals.

How would each of the proposers prefer that their proposals be expressed in the constitution? Paragraphs or bullets? A list, or a description? What do you want to emphasize/deemphasize, and in which order do you want your ideas expressed?

     Preamble 
Us individuals of hypothetica, to accomplish a purpose of unity and institute good authority, do establish this Constitution,

     Bon Sequitur's Proposal 
WE, the members of this Constitutional Assembly, recognise that at this juncture in the history of human events, the following we understand to be true:

THAT we the people can recognise no State whose sovereignty does not emanate from the consent of the people;

THAT persons are born with certain inalienable Rights;

THAT the establishment of a functional State is a precondition for the existence of a free, open, human society.

THEREFORE, through this document, we lay the basis of one system of such government, to be adopted, protected, and modified until such a time as History finds no more need for it.

     Raw Power Proposal 
"We, the People of Hypothetica, pledge to uphold the Truth, to seek it wherever it may be, and to never flinch before it. Therefore, through the power of the State and the will of the People, Investigation, Development and Innovation, of both Scientific and Humanistic nature, will be relentlessly promoted and encouraged, with particular focus on the aspects that will increase the cultural and scientific projection, radiance and influence over the world. Furthermore:

  • Every citizen has a right to free education, up until they complete their formation at the university.
  • Socialized, free medicine will be available to all citizens, *
I don't know how to explain the threshold from which the State should stop financing operations... you know, like not giving organ transplants to 90 year-olds with cancer and so on (within reason?).
  • There will be no hard limit on how much budget can be allocated by the State to any single university.
  • Works of a cultural and/or scientific nature that have the potential to strongly appeal to foreign nations, elties and/or people, and raise the prestige and esteem to which this country will be held among them, will be promoted by the State.
  • Aspirants to immigration belonging to the scientific, medical, educational, artistic, and liberal professions will be given priority over others, and the procedures for their acceptance will be simplified. Express measures will be taken to ensure their rapid and efficient integrations within Hypothetical society....

     De Marquis Proposal 
A. Consistent with the Federal System as outlined in Article I, there is to be an executive Head of Government at each of the three levels of government: National, Regional, and Local. The National Head of Government shall be called the President, the Regional shall be called the Governor, and the local shall be called the Mayor. Territories shall be governed by an administrative head appointed for a five year term by the President, as approved by the House of Representatives. Executive heads of government to serve for four year terms, maximum of two terms.

B. At each level of government, the election process shall be as follows: a general election by all eligible voters on one day selected by the corresponding legislature. The election process shall be administered by an election commission to be appointed by the National Minister of Justice for a four year term, the day of appointment not to fall on an election year. The election commission shall be funded by the House of Representatives.

C. All executive agencies shall report to the executive head of government at the corresponding level of government, such that national agencies shall report to the President, regional agencies to the Governor, and so forth. The executive head of government shall have the right to appoint or remove Ministers as heads of these agencies at any time. Appointments are made with the approval of a majority of the House of Representatives.

D. The executive head of government is considered the Chief of all public security forces at the corresponding level of government. He is also to take on emergency powers during times of declared emergencies (see Article IV).

E. In the event of the removal from office by death, incapacitation, or any other nonprocedural means, the Minister of Justice is to appoint a member of the court at the appropriate level of government to become the executive head of government pro temp, until another election can be organized by the election commission. This election must occur within one year of the removal of the executive.

F. Executive heads of government can only be procedurally removed from office by means of the council and ballot process at the corresponding level of government, such ballot of removal must be approved by 60% of all eligible voters at that level of government.

Articles

Article: I. Legislative Processes A. Constitutional Prerogative: no measure passed by any legislative process shall contravene an article of this constitution.

B. Federal System: The nation to have three levels of governance: national, regional/territorial, and local.

C. National Level. Two methods of passing legislation at the national level: 1. Elected Legislature: A directly elected one house legislature shall exist at the national level. When a bill is proposed in the national legislature it is passed as law if more than 50% of the representatives vote in it’s favor. a. Legislators are elected by means of a national vote, two hundred seats in the legislature to be apportioned among all parties that receive more than 5% of the popular vote. Each legislator to serve a three year term, no limit on consecutive terms. b. The legislature to develop and approve a budget for the cost of running the government each year, the fiscal year running from September 1st to August 31st. The legislature also to develop and approve a tax rate and revenue plan for the government every three years. 2. Council and Ballot: A citizen’s council consisting of volunteers selected from the regional citizens councils shall exist at the national level. When a proposal for a ballot measure is made in the national council, the council shall engage in facilitated discussion until a consensus statement of the proposal (with 95% support) is reached. This form of the proposal shall then be sent down to the regional councils for further debate. If more 50% of the regional councils support the proposal in it’s original form, then it is presented to all citizens in the country as a ballot to be voted on. If less than 50% of the regional councils support the proposal, the proposal does not go to popular ballot. a. The National Citizens’ Council shall consist of one thousand volunteers selected at random from the memberships of the regional councils. These members to serve on the National Council for two years, and are relieved of their duties at the regional level. Standards for membership can be set using the same process as outlines in article I.C.2. 3. An elected legislator may introduce proposals to the council, and the council may introduce bills to the legislature. Regional councils may introduce proposals for consideration to the national council, subject to the same process as outlined in article I.C.2. 4. Measures passed by council and ballot take precedence over measures passed by the legislature, including budget and revenue measures.

D. Regional and Local Levels: 1. A process equivalent to that at the national level shall take place at the regional and local levels of government. 2. Legislation passed at one level of government is binding on all lower levels of government.

II. Legislative Processes

A. Constitutional Perogative: no measure passed by any legislative process shall contravene an article of this consititution.

B. Federal System: The nation to have three levels of governance: national, regional/territorial, and local.

C. National Level. Two methods of passing legislation at the national level:

1. Elected Legislature: A directly elected one house legislature shall exist at the national level. When a bill is proposed in the national legislature it is passed as law if more than 50% of the representatives vote in it’s favor. 2. Council and Ballot: A citizen’s council consisting of volunteers selected from the regional citizens councils shall exist at the national level. When a proposal for a ballot measure is made in the national council, the council shall engage in facilitated discussion until a consensus statement of the proposal (with 95% support) is reached. This form of the proposal shall then be sent down to the regional councils for further debate. If more 50% of the regional councils support the proposal in it’s original form, then it is presented to all citizens in the country as a ballot to be voted on. If less than 50% of the regional councils support the proposal, the proposal does not go to popular ballot. 3. An elected legislator may introduce proposals to the council, and the council may introduce bills to the legislature. Regional councils may introduce proposals for consideration to the national council, subject to the same process as outlined in article I.C.2. 4. Measures passed by council and ballot take precedence over measures passed by the legislature.

D. Regional and Local Levels: 1. A process equivalent to that at the national level shall take place at the regional and local levels of government. 2. Legislation passed at one level of government is binding on all lower levels of government.

III. The Executive

A. Consistent with the Federal System as outlined in Article I, there is to be an executive Head of Government at each of the three levels of government: National, Regional, and Local. The National Head of Government shall be called the President, the Regional shall be called the Governor, and the local shall be called the Mayor. Territories shall be governed by an administrative head appointed for a five year term by the President, as approved by the House of Representatives. Executive heads of government to serve for four year terms, maximum of two terms.

B. At each level of government, the election process shall be as follows: a general election by all eligible voters on one day selected by the corresponding legislature. The election process shall be administered by an election commission to be appointed by the National Minister of Justice for a four year term, the day of appointment not to fall on an election year. The election commission shall be funded by the House of Representatives.

C. All executive agencies shall report to the executive head of government at the corresponding level of government, such that national agencies shall report to the President, regional agencies to the Governor, and so forth. The executive head of government shall have the right to appoint or remove Ministers as heads of these agencies at any time. Appointments are made with the approval of a majority of the House of Representatives.

D. The executive head of government is considered the Chief of all public security forces at the corresponding level of government. He is also to take on emergency powers during times of declared emergencies (see Article IV).

E. In the event of the removal from office by death, incapacitation, or any other nonprocedural means, the Minister of Justice is to appoint a member of the court at the appropriate level of government to become the executive head of government pro temp, until another election can be organized by the election commission. This election must occur within one year of the removal of the executive.

F. Executive heads of government can only be procedurally removed from office by means of the council and ballot process at the corresponding level of government, such ballot of removal must be approved by 60% of all eligible voters at that level of government.

edited 11th Oct '10 4:59:52 PM by AlirozTheConfused

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#374: Oct 9th 2010 at 5:50:13 PM

Ah, we have articles one (Legislative) and two (Judicial) already. We're currently arguing over one particular aspect of article 1 (the house of representatives). We really need article 3 (the executive) and a bill of rights, and probably an article on national defense, public safety and emergency powers. And a preamble.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
BonSequitur Has emotional range Since: Jan, 2001
Has emotional range
#375: Oct 9th 2010 at 11:22:29 PM

How about:

WE, the members of this Constitutional Assembly, recognise that at this juncture in the history of human events, the following we understand to be true:

THAT we the people can recognise no State whose sovereignty does not emanate from the consent of the people;

THAT persons are born with certain inalienable Rights;

THAT the establishment of a functional State is a precondition for the existence of a free, open, human society.

THEREFORE, through this document, we lay the basis of one system of such government, to be adopted, protected, and modified until such a time as History finds no more need for it.

And to that add a statement of goals and a bill of rights, THEN go into the articles.

edited 9th Oct '10 11:22:49 PM by BonSequitur

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These are the series that help a person get rolling with Animé. Vote up the ones you think are more essential and vote down the ones you think are less essential.

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