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Reinvent the scale?: Mohs Scale Of Science Fiction Hardness

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Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#101: Feb 26th 2011 at 7:44:32 PM

I think that would fall under "taking the joke too far". It should be done only if it makes sense to have ten items on the scale, not for the sake of the title pun.

CounterBlitzkrieg Ovechkin FTW from the Eastern Seaboard Since: May, 2010
Ovechkin FTW
#104: Mar 6th 2011 at 11:22:47 PM

I think we can start doing the changing to the scales if you ask me. Last time I checked the crowners, the first option of changing the scales to Robin Zimm's proposition had a disproportionate positive votes.

edited 6th Mar '11 11:23:28 PM by CounterBlitzkrieg

Why are you reading this line?
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#105: Mar 7th 2011 at 6:02:13 AM

Okay - what I'm imagining is a three-step process:

1. Create subpages for each of the proposed categories.

2. Move the current content of the main page in Sandbox/Mohs Scale Of Science Fiction Hardness and replace with descriptions of and links to the subpages.

3. Flag works on the subpages that have been sorted into the new system (e.g. by strikethroughs).

Sound good?

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#106: Mar 7th 2011 at 12:11:21 PM

Uh. Not sure. I thought we thought that the page itself didn't necessarily need examples. Obviously all science fiction will belong under one of these categories - listing any specific work seems unnecessary.

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#107: Mar 7th 2011 at 1:49:52 PM

And every work of fiction contains tropes. It's just having fun.

CounterBlitzkrieg Ovechkin FTW from the Eastern Seaboard Since: May, 2010
Ovechkin FTW
#108: Mar 7th 2011 at 7:57:55 PM

Yeah I'm good with that.

@nrjxll The page doesn't need examples, but we want it, it's for fun. Yes, obviously all science fiction works will belong into one of the categories. And your point is? Wouldn't that be a good thing? I for one thought so.

edited 7th Mar '11 7:58:51 PM by CounterBlitzkrieg

Why are you reading this line?
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#109: Mar 7th 2011 at 8:20:50 PM

Well, if we listed them, it seems to me that either we'd have one large page or issues with notability will come into play.

But it's Just for Fun, and the current page isn't solely filled with Trope Overdosed things (my one pet peeve with this sort of thing), so I withdraw my objection.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#110: Mar 16th 2011 at 5:35:52 PM

(Skipped a lot of posts, but the idea seems clear enough, and the crowner options' descriptions certainly help summarize the issue.)

Concerning example listing: I suggest we impose a restriction of three examples per category which the Troper Hive Mind can generally agree that they describe the category well, to preempt rapid overinflation of the article in the future. The rest of the examples can simply be shuttled off to each work-in-question's own article.

edited 16th Mar '11 5:37:06 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#111: Mar 16th 2011 at 8:35:16 PM

That would also have the benefit of preventing double-counting - works being placed in multiple categories.

redlar Since: Jul, 2009
#112: May 3rd 2011 at 3:55:02 PM

So will the scale be changed once we figure out what to do with examples on the page? Personally, I don't have a problem with people putting examples on the page nor do I like the idea of having a limit to the number of examples per category. I rather like the current format, since it also ends up being a good catalogue of similar sci-fi series' that I can follow up on later, and it gives a better impression of the spectrum within the categories.

Plus it would be a little hard to get tropers to agree on just three examples that define a category.

edited 3rd May '11 3:55:46 PM by redlar

I laugh in the face of suffering.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#113: May 3rd 2011 at 4:10:54 PM

I disagree strongly with limiting it to three examples per category. For one thing,

—> "It is about the examples, dorkwoods!" Janitor, back at the beginning of the wiki.

For another, limiting the examples to three greatly increases the probability that someone reading the page won't be familiar enough with any of the three to get a good idea of what the category is really like. With a sliding scale, the more of the examples you are familiar with, the easier the divisions on the scale are to see. It's the similarities between works that define where they go on the scale.

edited 3rd May '11 4:11:46 PM by Madrugada

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#114: May 3rd 2011 at 4:44:44 PM

[up] Good points. Proposal retracted.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Archereon Ave Imperator from Everywhere. Since: Oct, 2010
Ave Imperator
#115: Jun 3rd 2011 at 9:33:59 AM

I really think somebody needs to get this done. Even if its just resorted examples. On a side note, we definitely need something in there that points out that hardness in a work is based on the period of time it is made in, even if it's based on science from a previous time period.

Therefore, Fallout should not be in the place on the scale that it currently occupies.

As said before, FTL shouldn't automatically make a work soft. Why Metal Gear, Fallout, and FEAR are higher up on the scale than Contact is beyond me.

Here's an idea I've had that's probably going to be extremely controversial: require every entry to have an actual scientific explanation for its position, and recommend adding citations to the explanation.

So many of the out of place entries reek of people not bothering to do the research.

edited 3rd Jun '11 9:54:49 AM by Archereon

This is a signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#116: Jun 3rd 2011 at 1:22:13 PM

Wait, what? I thought the change had already been made?

[up]That's probably not a good idea. We've already voted in a new scale (which does do away with the "FTL Stigma"), and I was under the impression the change had already been made, but apparently not. Adding in something like that would just be confusing and IMO overly critical of "soft" SF.

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#117: Jun 3rd 2011 at 6:34:58 PM

I'll get started on it.

Edit: The old text is at Sandbox.Mohs Scale Of Science Fiction Hardness; the examples I chose for the rewrite are added to the subpages, with descriptions mostly cribbed from the old page.

edited 3rd Jun '11 7:33:23 PM by RobinZimm

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#118: Jun 6th 2011 at 7:13:52 AM

I'm rewriting the list to make it compatible with [[index]]ing.

Edit 1: I've turned it into a numbered list — if the indexing doesn't propagate, I'll come back to fix it.

Edit 2: ...oh, you have to state that the page is an index. Done.

edited 6th Jun '11 7:39:02 AM by RobinZimm

Grobi Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#119: Jun 27th 2011 at 7:11:34 AM

[up] I think this should be a trope-page that's also an index - however, as I changed this to "Trope + indexing", it didn't work. Weird...

Anyway, are we (ok, you) done here?

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#120: Jun 27th 2011 at 1:19:04 PM

I think we're done — everything else to be done can be done by Wiki Magic.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#121: Jun 27th 2011 at 1:28:22 PM

Looks great! There was just one problem—the page was tagged as a work, not a trope, so it had blank moment and YMMV links at the top. Fixed it.

Is there anything else?

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#122: Jun 27th 2011 at 1:37:04 PM

In spite of the index tags in the article, the sub-pages are not being indexed. I took a look, and found that the "does indexing" box was not checked off as it was supposed to be, so I did... and it still did nothing.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#123: Jun 27th 2011 at 2:09:31 PM

Sometimes you need to make an edit to the index page to make the indexing start working.

RobinZimm Since: Jan, 2001
#124: Jul 3rd 2011 at 9:46:46 AM

It's working at the moment - lock the thread.

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20th Apr '10 12:00:00 AM

Crown Description:

Several tropers question whether the present categories correctly describe what science fiction fans mean when they discuss how "hard" or "soft" a given work of science fiction is.

Total posts: 124
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