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Mary Sue litmus test

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elleirabird Ari from In the TARDIS Since: Oct, 2010
Ari
#226: Feb 23rd 2011 at 4:31:15 PM

I got 31 on the springhole litmus test for an original character, but I'm taking it with a grain of salt since the test doesn't count subversions. :P It's fun, reading this conversation, though.

Writing a story is like building a creature from the bones up...except you have no idea what it's supposed to look like.
JewelyJ from A state in the USA Since: Jul, 2009
#227: Feb 23rd 2011 at 4:35:46 PM

@AHR Hey as long as the universe doesn't revolve around them too its cool by me. As long as you have an in story reason for it. I just added that for all the people who have their main character break all the laws of magic because she's just 'special'. I mean if you have something like "they are really skilled and after years of work and study, found a way to work around some law of magic' or something like that, that's at least better.

But when you have your main character get extra power just in the nick of time because she's just so special and pure good that she deserves it or stuff like that-ew no.

As far as the test goes having super powers is kinda 'eh okay sure' if you have a good explanation. I should probably adjust the power level part.

You know what I mean? It's all about explanation and having a REASON for what you do. and you don't bend over backwards to give your character everything they want.

edited 23rd Feb '11 4:38:12 PM by JewelyJ

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#228: Feb 23rd 2011 at 4:37:32 PM

Reason don't mean shit if the reason is shit.

Read my stories!
elleirabird Ari from In the TARDIS Since: Oct, 2010
Ari
#229: Feb 23rd 2011 at 4:40:24 PM

Haha, it's not like that. :P My main character does have some pretty extreme powers (it's hard to explain, but she becomes the vessel/carrier for the 'spark', aka the combined spirit of human inspiration) so she has a lot of new abilities and powers: the ability to understand any human language, and so forth. But there's also a downside - the spark starts killing her because it's too much for any one human to bear, as well as all the voices in her head...

:)

Writing a story is like building a creature from the bones up...except you have no idea what it's supposed to look like.
JewelyJ from A state in the USA Since: Jul, 2009
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
JewelyJ from A state in the USA Since: Jul, 2009
#232: Feb 23rd 2011 at 4:47:39 PM

Hey if the author can realize that it may be done a lot and try to go about it in an original way it sounds fine by me.

When you add an element in the story you should add it because it works for the story not because its original and never been done before.

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#233: Feb 23rd 2011 at 4:48:59 PM

Yes, but one should also keep in mind things that have been done to death. One does not need to make something original or new, just not something that has been executed the same way that is intended a thousand+ times. Avoiding clichés does not imply one should find something that has never been done.

edited 23rd Feb '11 4:49:45 PM by MrAHR

Read my stories!
JewelyJ from A state in the USA Since: Jul, 2009
TheProffesor The Professor from USA Since: Jan, 2011
#235: Feb 23rd 2011 at 11:10:22 PM

My character got a 44,but I think several points could be taken off if I could add in an important plot device.

Yes,my character does have a special object he wears that gives him immense power,but there are two drawbacks that help limit the power.

One,he can't use the object without a considerable amount energy,and it tires him out. If he overuses it,it could even kill him.

Also,his personality limits him. He's afraid of using the device at all for fear of succumbing to it and becoming a villain.

He is royal,but he is in a position that isn't as important as most would usually use. Most royals in stories are the heir to the throne,or a king or queen. My royal character is the heir to the throne's younger brother.

In universe,he's not as important as his older brother. I was hoping that would help limit the sueness of him.

Anyways,I don't think that test is 100% accurate since you have to add in other things. It isn't detailed enough. Agree,disagree?

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#236: Feb 23rd 2011 at 11:51:57 PM

My character, who, I admit, is a self-insert, got a 90... not good...

My idea was a self-insert of Tales Of Symphonia, caused by an unknown, malevolent force, and the character then angsts about it shortly before realizing that he has more important things to do than angst. It follows him as he grows from a coward to a heroic character trying to help people, starting with:

  • The Adventure, which is him in Tales Of Symphonia
  • The War, which follows him through various military fiction
  • The Attention, which follows him as he gains national spotlight from a titanic battle against another force in the middle of Central park (Admittedly this part could be cut)
  • The Imprisonment, where he is tried and convicted for murder and must learn to live without the comforts he accumulated through his adventures, while simultaneously trying to fight off the malevolent force which began this crap
  • The Parenting, which has him raising a pair of siblings in feudal Japan for several years before being put back in modern times
  • The Normalcy, which is him suddenly years before the whole story began with all his memories intact and he tries to apply his skills while trying to seem sane.

...thoughts?

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
TeChameleon Since: Jan, 2001
#237: Feb 26th 2011 at 7:58:02 AM

Huh. While not normally prone to fanfiction, I have written a Hunter X Hunter fic that I'm in the middle of reworking so that I can actually look at it without cringing, and so that I might finally finish the sequel >.O

I plugged the main character into the various tests;

The Universal Mary-Sue Litmus Test gave a 22 when I was applying it without mercy, and a 15 when I let some of the stuff that could go either way slide.

The Katfeete Test gave these results:

Ryozha is only a little like you. He isn't really very cool: he blends into crowds, he hangs out on the fringes at parties, and wearing shades after dark makes him run into things. He may have sometimes thought that he was special, or destined for greater things, but probably dismissed the idea as a fantasy. He's got no emotional scars to speak of. And he's gotten no slack from you.

In general, you care deeply about Ryozha, but you're smart enough to let him stand on his own, without burdening him with your personal fantasies or propping him up with idealization and over-dramatization. Ryozha is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of him.

  • Score Breakdown
  • I Love Him, I Let Him Go 7
  • You Mean Plaid Is Out? 6
  • I'm Destined For What? 3
  • Healthy as a Horse 0
  • Momma HATES Him! 0
  • Total: 16

The Ponyland Press gave a 3 on the initial runthrough, which... didn't seem right. Did it again and ticked off everything even remotely applicable, and got a 13 (11-20 points: The Non-Sue. Your character is a well-developed, balanced person, and is almost certainly not a Mary Sue. Congratulations!)

-*shrug* These Sue-detectors seem to be heavily biased towards the female romantic wish-fulfillment characters. Since my character is designed to fit into a No Hugging, No Kissing Shonen series and is barely pubescent anyways, he pretty much gets a pass on the whole 'romantic Sue' end of things.

Oh, and Jewely J's test gave me... I think negative 25, which doesn't sound quite right >.>

Meh. I think I need a beta reader of some sort- my editing has slowed to a crawl, and bludgeoning what were inferred flaws of the character in the original form of the story into actual plot-sensitive stuff is starting to get me down. Probably doesn't help that the bloody thing's already more than a hundred thousand words long -_-;

JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#238: Feb 26th 2011 at 11:19:29 AM

So, I'm running my epic's heroes and villains through the Ponyland Press test, as established by the end of the first arc. Here goes nothing.

So, there you are.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#239: Feb 26th 2011 at 12:11:08 PM

Lets do this. Gonna do only the first arc. Cause if I did more I'd have to include a sexual abuse thing that occurs during the plot to the main character as he struggles to find the balance between 'super-chaste-girls-are-yucky' and 'it's-OK-to-have-sex-I'm-an-adult-right?'. >.>

  • Protagonist:
    • Universal: 24
Some definite Sue-like tendancies here. A little polishing might be in order to put original fiction and RPG characters back into the balance, especially if Kirking is involved. Fanfiction characters should probably have some work done.
  • Pony Press: 14
The Non-Sue. Your character is a well-developed, balanced person, and is almost certainly not a Mary Sue. Congratulations!
  • Writer's: Nicky is nothing like you. He isn't really very cool: he blends into crowds, he hangs out on the fringes at parties, and wearing shades after dark makes him run into things. He may have sometimes thought that he was special, or destined for greater things, but probably dismissed the idea as a fantasy. He's got no emotional scars to speak of. And he's gotten no slack from you.

In general, you care deeply about Nicky, but you're smart enough to let him stand on his own, without burdening him with your personal fantasies or propping him up with idealization and over-dramatization. Nicky is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of him.

  • Best Friend / Rival / Foil:
    • Universal:45
Fanfiction authors, you might just want to start over. Role-players and original fiction authors, at this point your characters are likely to provoke eye-rolling and exclaimations of "yeah, right!" from your readers. (Well, at least from me.) Immediate workover is probably in order.
  • Pony Press: 63
Über-Sue. You've got one hell of a Mary-Sue on your hands here, and it's not going to be easy to set things right. But do your best. There may be hope for you yet.
  • Writer's:
Kiwi is suspiciously similar to you as you'd like to be. He may be popular, or he may not, but no matter what he's impossible to ignore; he stands out... just the way you always wanted to. He always knew he was special, destined for great things - and probablyf made sure everyone else knew it too. He's come in for his share of hurt, but gotten off with minor damage. And he's gotten no slack from you.

You may have let yourself get a little too close to Kiwi. Maybe he's you as you wish you were, or maybe you're just afraid no one will like him and are trying to give him a free ride. Have some confidence in your writing! Kiwi is a good character. Give him room to be himself before you stifle him.

  • Protag's Sister, Another Foil:
    • Universal:26
Some definite Sue-like tendancies here. A little polishing might be in order to put original fiction and RPG characters back into the balance, especially if Kirking is involved. Fanfiction characters should probably have some work done.
  • Pony Press: 8
The Anti-Sue. Your character is the very antithesis of a Mary-Sue. Why are you even taking this test?
  • Writer's:
Jamie is only a little like you. She isn't really very cool: she blends into crowds, she hangs out on the fringes at parties, and wearing shades after dark makes her run into things. She may have sometimes thought that she was special, or destined for greater things, but probably dismissed the idea as a fantasy. She's got no emotional scars to speak of. And she's gotten no slack from you.

In general, you care deeply about Jamie, but you're smart enough to let her stand on her own, without burdening her with your personal fantasies or propping her up with idealization and over-dramatization. Jamie is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of her.

And I'm tired now. Might do others later.

Kiwi always gets the biggest score, but I'm usually confident that I'll be fine with him.

Read my stories!
LeighSabio Mate Griffon To Mare from Love party! Since: Jan, 2001
Mate Griffon To Mare
#240: Feb 28th 2011 at 12:38:56 PM

Took this test. Got a 14, which makes sense, as the character I ran through the test has some definite physical limitations.

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.
reuvas Since: Aug, 2011
#241: Sep 24th 2011 at 9:30:35 PM

My OC, over whom I became quite stressed about his being a mary sue (or I guess marty stu...whatever)actually turned out to score an 11 on the litmus test, so I was very happy. What I learned: your character can have 'God-like powers' and a slightly cliched, over the top backstory if they are actually people who 'interact' and 'are more than one-dimensional' and the like. In short...abilities don't neccessarily make a sue, but characterization. So thank you for teaching me that, and easing my nerves, whoever made this test. Also...I don't really think it's that sueish to begin with, as he has physical and psychological limitations, and different characters react differently to him, and vice versa (all while, hopefully, staying out of OOC territory.)I don't know...I was just worried that his 'power' screamed sue I guess.

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#242: Sep 24th 2011 at 10:09:47 PM

Anyone who wants to see a good Mary Sue litmus test should check out this thread.

Teraus Awesome Lightning Mantra from The Origin of Dreams Since: Jul, 2011
Awesome Lightning Mantra
#243: Sep 25th 2011 at 6:09:55 AM

[up][up][up] Too punishing to powerful characters, even if their power is justified.

edited 25th Sep '11 6:10:03 AM by Teraus

"You cannot judge a system if your judgement is determined by the system."
EvaUnit01 Fandom Heretic Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Fandom Heretic
#244: Apr 23rd 2012 at 1:08:31 PM

One of my two characters for Neon Knights got a 17, although I'm not sure about some of the things. He is an Eva Pilot (which specifically is rare, but being a mecha pilot at all is not), but he pretty much always ends up with his butt kicked when he's by himself. He does romance a main Love Interest.... but he's not the main character, instead being more of a Red Oni Secondary Character Lancer to our Blue Oni Hero, although I'm not sure whether or not he counts as a Satellite Character.

The other character, who has yet to appear, I'll generally be crafting with influences from Asuna Kagurazaka, Kenpachi Zaraki, Tifa Lockhart and Chibodee Crockett, although she's almost more a Phlebotinum than a character in terms of plot importance. Her score is 13, probably a result of getting even less screentime, to the point of being a less Recurring Extra and more Running Gag-slash-Two-Or-Three Scene Wonder in terms of solo action. She's definitely a Satellite Character to the other one, though.

edited 23rd Apr '12 1:10:23 PM by EvaUnit01

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#245: Apr 23rd 2012 at 2:31:41 PM

[up]This test is as useless as most on the internet, frankly. The one in this thread is probably the only one I've ever seen that's halfway decent, although even there, it's not an absolute decider on what is and isn't a "good" character.

People in general seem to worry too much about pleasing the Mary Sue Police online.

Edit: Or you can just listen to [down]this guy, who sums things up a lot better than I ever could.

edited 23rd Apr '12 2:37:36 PM by nrjxll

ALibrarianofBabel Since: Apr, 2012
#246: Apr 23rd 2012 at 2:35:45 PM

Why am I not surprised that the TV Tropes forum would love the idea of rating characters by checking off boxes?

Once you get past the twelve-year-old level of writing, Mary Sue Litmus tests are basically worthless. Their intended purpose is to tell you whether or not your character is a Mary Sue, but because the person filling in the boxes can't easily see whether they have the underlying problems (like "Does your character reduce everyone else to mere mirrors in which her awesomeness is reflected?") and instead ask whether they share traits with typical Mary Sues (like "Does your character have a weird name?")

But a disease and a symptom are not the same thing. Finding symptoms does not prove you have the disease - those sneezes may mean you have a cold, or they may just mean the room is dusty. Failing to find symptoms does not prove you do not have the disease - it may be more subtle or presenting in a less typical manner. And stomping out symptoms doesn't cure the disease - if your illness causes you to cough and you suck on something to make the coughing stop, you haven't cured the underlying disease. (Trying to cure Mary Sues this way just leads to the Anti-Sue.)

Fiction isn't paint-by-numbers. There's no mathematical formula for calculating how well-written a character is. Pretending there is one just leads to writers either sabotaging their own work to alter their score (Oh no, I scored a 52, I must delete half my story even though the character is actually fine and the test doesn't prove anything - note that most major characters of YA published works fall into the "Sue" range on the test) or incorrectly concluding that their own work doesn't need improvement because they "passed" the litmus test (despite still being poorly-written and the world still revolving around the protagonist, who merely lacked the telepathy needed to be picked up by the exam).

If checking off endless boxes is your thing, I suppose these can be an amusing diversion, but it's not a good idea to actually try to use these in order to evaluate or improve your writing. Have a flesh and blood person read what you've written instead.

Never build a character piecemeal out of tropes.
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#247: Apr 23rd 2012 at 2:48:01 PM

They're actually really useful for people who aren't used to writing. I am in a LARP group, and you'd be AMAZED at the clichés the newbies cook up. They're good for people at that level.

Read my stories!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#248: Apr 23rd 2012 at 2:50:51 PM

Hence why s/he said "above the twelve-year-old level".

Speaking of which, whatever happened to Windmill Scythe Man, anyway?

I should add, though, that I'm not sure whether this

note that most major characters of YA published works fall into the "Sue" range on the test

is really an indictment of the tests - not just because I think some of these characters are frankly Sueish, but at the same time because "Mary Sue" is essentially a fanfiction term, and trying to apply it to original characters will always cause problems.

edited 23rd Apr '12 2:52:02 PM by nrjxll

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#249: Apr 23rd 2012 at 3:30:44 PM

Except age has nothing to do with it.

Read my stories!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#250: Apr 23rd 2012 at 3:57:50 PM

Age typically equates to experience - not always, but frequently.


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