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MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#182551: Dec 11th 2020 at 6:40:45 AM

The problem with adding types is that they are either

  • Elemental
  • or a classification of species mythical or otherwise

For the former, Light and maybe Sound are viable but with a lot of retyping needed due to already existing moves. got the latter, there are few umbrellas that are usable since the Undead, fey entities, insects and arachnids, dragons, robots, psychics, birds and even martial arts are accounted for. and I'd argue that the Bug-type exists becuase of their unique interactions and that a Reptile or Mammal type would be redundant

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Dec 11th 2020 at 6:42:15 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#182552: Dec 11th 2020 at 8:45:36 AM

[up]I agree with that. Plus Normal represents mammals well.

@PMC: Why would someone use Rock against Rock even now, when they could use Ground or Steel instead? I don't think Rock resisting Rock would add much. As for the concerns you had about Rock, that's why I'd have it resist Electric and be resisted by Grass.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 11th 2020 at 10:49:08 AM

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#182553: Dec 11th 2020 at 9:37:44 AM

That reminds me, Steel should probably be super effective against Grass. Cause axes and stuff chopping wood and whatnot.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#182554: Dec 11th 2020 at 11:02:38 AM

Player's Cup II Global Finals day 1 begins.

Continue writing our story of peace.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#182555: Dec 11th 2020 at 11:08:31 AM

[up][up]True. But Steel is strong enough, and Grass is weak enough already.

I used to be of the mind that Sound should be a type. But recently I thought: wouldn't almost all of that's attacks be immune to Substitutes, or evasion changes? What would its type matchups even be? I suppose Grass and Water would resist it. And I like the idea of some things just being move properties, like "bullet/bomb", "aura", "grounded", etc.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 11th 2020 at 1:48:21 PM

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
Vertigo_High Since: May, 2010
#182556: Dec 11th 2020 at 11:33:40 AM

You can still have a distinction between sound as a type and sound as a move trait. I'd simply call the sound type, the sonic type for clearer distinction. Not every punching move is fighting type after all.

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drunk bunny
#182557: Dec 11th 2020 at 11:41:41 AM

honestly, reclassifying all sound-based moves into a type of its own might not be a bad idea

i dont know how they'll justify Sound-Types Super Effectiveness and Weaknesses to balance the types but

there's only 29 sound based moves, which isn't a lot to change, and of those moves 12 of them already have another type (though a chunk of them can definitely be changed to a Sound type)

honestly it probably wouldn't be a bad idea

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Vertigo_High Since: May, 2010
#182558: Dec 11th 2020 at 12:03:57 PM

se against water for starters. Resists ghost and flying. Electric resists sound.

Edited by Vertigo_High on Dec 11th 2020 at 12:04:43 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#182559: Dec 11th 2020 at 3:12:21 PM

Why would someone use Rock against Rock even now, when they could use Ground or Steel instead? I don't think Rock resisting Rock would add much. As for the concerns you had about Rock, that's why I'd have it resist Electric and be resisted by Grass.

Because Rock is one of the most common coverage move types, and my Rock/Flying Pokemon always get one-shot by Rock moves despite being immune to Ground moves. Steel is also a lot less common for coverage moves, so you don't usually need to worry about Steel attacks from non-Steel Pokemon.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#182560: Dec 11th 2020 at 4:16:08 PM

Alright I took an inventory on what pokemon I'm still missing from my Pokedex and Living Dex: From the Olympus Mons section:

  • Zarude
  • Meltan/Melmetal
  • Naganadel
  • Stakataka
  • Zacian and Zamazenta
  • Kubfu and Urushifu
  • Regidrago and Regileki
  • Zarude (so any spare newsletter codes are appreciated)
  • Calyrex, Spectrider and Glastrider
  • G!Articuno, G!Zapdos and G!Moltres

As could plainly be seen I haden't finished with the Post Macro Cosmos part of the base game or touched the DLC content so this might change if I get to that (though I'd still appreciate having one of each from that list, especially since Gastrider and Spectrider are mutually exclusive, Urshifu has 2 version exclusive forms and of course Zacian and Zamazenta are also exclusive)

The more likely section to fill id the Non-Olympus Mon section, in which case there is:

  • Thwackey
  • Rillaboom
  • Drizzile
  • Raboot
  • Cinderace
  • Polteageist
  • Cursola
  • Mr. Rime
  • Sirfetch'd
  • Pinchurin
  • -zolt and -vish Fossels (just need 2 of the Sword fossils though)
  • G!Darmanitan, G!Slowbro, G!Snowking and G!Rapidash

So those are the pokemon I'm missing from my Living Dex and Pokedex so far. I'd say the most glaring omissions are Zarude, the -riders, the Wolves, Cubfu's line, Meltan's linenote  and 3 of the Fossils, everything else could be obtained on my Shield game or GTS trading.(EDIT: in fact I got Rillaboom from the GTS right now)

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Dec 11th 2020 at 4:28:38 AM

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#182561: Dec 11th 2020 at 5:11:07 PM

Because Rock is one of the most common coverage move types, and my Rock/Flying Pokemon always get one-shot by Rock moves despite being immune to Ground moves.

There's only like four Rock/Flying Pokémon and two of them are Glass Cannons already. Plus Archen and Archeops have Defeatist and might as well be dead after taking any damage.

I think your priorities are kind of skewed.

Edited by Karxrida on Dec 11th 2020 at 5:13:21 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#182562: Dec 11th 2020 at 5:22:15 PM

I just don't get why there's any pushback to the idea. There's literally no good reason why Rock should not resist Rock, not when Ice and Steel resist themselves.

It makes no sense on an in-universe level, and would only balance the type more in both areas it needs balancing on a competitive level, why the hell is anyone arguing with me against it?

I've read the counter-arguments presented so far, but all of them are either nonsensical or memes or both.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 11th 2020 at 6:24:52 AM

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#182563: Dec 11th 2020 at 5:25:33 PM

Because rocks have been used to break other rocks since we were pretty much savannah chimps.

Rocks DENT rocks. That's what happens when you pick up a stone and chug it into another rock.

Edited by Eriorguez on Dec 11th 2020 at 2:26:21 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#182564: Dec 11th 2020 at 5:31:37 PM

So does metal! Hard metal cuts softer metal in exactly the same way hard rocks break softer rocks, it doesn't stop Steel from resisting itself!

That's one of the nonsensical arguments, and why I keep bringing up Ice and Steel as examples of "hard material" Types that resist themselves.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 11th 2020 at 6:44:25 AM

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#182565: Dec 11th 2020 at 5:38:08 PM

in all honeslty, a lot of types seem to reists themselves on the logic of being able to harm other beings of the same type Fire comsumes fire, oceans swallow oceans, etc.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#182566: Dec 11th 2020 at 5:46:46 PM

[up][up] No, you are being verbose about trying to tank stuff with Aerodactyl and failing. Your logic is not as clear cut to others as it is to you, and your arguments aren't persuasive.

I am not wrong for not wanting Rock to resist itself. You are not wrong for wanting Rock to resist itself.

Edited by Eriorguez on Dec 11th 2020 at 2:48:45 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#182567: Dec 11th 2020 at 5:51:35 PM

I explained why I want it based on my own personal experience:

  • In Black, my Archeops kept getting heavily injured by Rock (and Electric) coverage moves.

  • In X, my Aurorus kept getting heavily injured by Rock coverage moves.

  • In Ultra Sun, my Alolan Golem couldn't tank Guzma's Pinsir because for some stupid reason, its Rock coverage move did massive damage against it, leading to a team wipe against him. I was relying on Alolan Golem to defeat Guzma, but she was defeated by a random coverage move of her own type.

I always forget that Rock doesn't resist Electric and itself, and it's always my downfall, because it's fucking stupid that Rock doesn't resist Electric and Rock.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 11th 2020 at 6:54:56 AM

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#182568: Dec 11th 2020 at 6:05:48 PM

Stone Edge has a high critical rate. You got critted. Or perhaps your Golem had a low defense IV and bad nature.

And Glass Cannons not tanking hits is a piss-poor argument.

And how is the fault of the type chart you being unable to remember it? Blame the player, not the game. "I forget the rules, so they are stupid"? Really?

Edited by Eriorguez on Dec 11th 2020 at 3:06:56 PM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#182569: Dec 11th 2020 at 6:13:01 PM

@PMC: I'm not wont to agree with other people without making a comment, so now I do feel compelled to say: your rationale for Rock resisting Rock is, by your own admission, based off of your personal wishes and experience, not a gameplay or logical perspective. If anything, I'd suggest assuming the opposite, assuming that a type doesn't resist itself, because better safe than sorry.

There's logical arguments for why Rock should be strong against Rock, and they're the exact same arguments for why Rock should resist Rock: stronger rock beats weaker rock. Even the same strength rocks will do neutral damage to each other if given the same momentum. This suggests that Rock should stay neutral to Rock.

The way it is now, 9 types resist themselves. 2 are weak to themselves. 7 are neutral to themselves.

  • The types that resist themselves are:
    • The "elementals" of Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Ice
    • Poison - add Poison to Poison, and you get more poison, just like with the elementals.
    • Psychic - because At least I'm safe inside my mind, for the Pokemon that are all about having srong minds (except for a certain trope I made a page for, as per the linked video)
    • Two types are less justified in their auto-resistances
      • Dark - because I guess Dark-types aren't subject to Eviler than Thou, and know each other's tricks?
      • Steel - Steel should really be neutral to itself. This is auto-resistance one I disagree on, but I've already suggested several changes to Steel, so this is a battle I'll leave someone else to fight.
  • The types weak to themselves are:
    • Dragon - Balance purposes
    • Ghost - Balance purposes
  • All other types are neutral to themselves, because they're not cases where you can "add it to itself", don't need to be balanced by being weak to themselves, or the interaction they'd have with a collision of themselves in the real world would mean one would win, and one would lose, balancing itself out.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 11th 2020 at 8:18:17 AM

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#182571: Dec 11th 2020 at 6:13:46 PM

Stone Edge didn't crit, Pinsir was just a higher level and it did over 50% to Alolan Golem when I was switching her in to take the hit for a teammate.

Aurorus ain't a glass cannon, it's clearly designed as a tank, it just happens to have the worst defensive typing in the game. And Archeops shouldn't take over 50% from random coverage moves on Pokemon 10 levels lower than it.

Rock resisting Rock is just something that seems intuitively obvious, and I blame Gen 1 and the anime for convincing me that Rock resists or is immune to Electric.

Also this entire conversation is about what we think the game does wrong and what we would change about it.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 11th 2020 at 7:16:36 AM

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
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#182572: Dec 11th 2020 at 6:16:11 PM

I mean, if those Rock types were immune to Electric they were probably also part Ground type.

Although I got tripped up by that too.

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#182573: Dec 11th 2020 at 6:17:39 PM

Regarding Aurorus, I've suggested buffing both Ice and Rock defensively. But "Rock should resist Rock" isn't a logical argument to me. You've got a much better shot of convincing me "Ice shouldn't be weak to Rock".

I love Archeops. But if you're trying to use it to tank anything, you're doing it wrong. It's a Death or Glory Attack Pokemon.

And I did suggest that Rock resist Electric. Rock resisting Rock just isn't an argument I can cosign, if it's just based around the reasoning of "I want it that way"

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 11th 2020 at 8:19:46 AM

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#182574: Dec 11th 2020 at 6:19:15 PM

Remember when Ash trained Pikachu to learn Iron Tail as a coverage move for Roxanne's Gym so it could have some way of hurting her Rock Pokemon? Except Ground is the type that is actually immune to Electric, and Nosepass is pure Rock, meaning Electric moves work fine against it.

That episode fucked up my perception of Rock for life.

clemont107 Taunie from Lumiose City, Kalos (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Taunie
#182575: Dec 11th 2020 at 6:19:49 PM

Stone Edge is one of those moves that seriously needs to have its accuracy buffed. 1 out of 5 times it will miss...

Anyway I don't really think Rock should resist Rock. The Rock-type is supposed to be a mostly-offensive type, so if it resisted itself it would not be as good of an offensive type.

But I would support Rock having some of its weaknesses removed. Maybe Grass? A lot of Pokemon like Carracosta and Rhyperior suffer in competitive-battling thanks to 2 quadruple weaknesses to Grass and Water. 1 quadruple weakness is arguably better than 2.

"Great, now this gal named Dawn is stalking me and complaining about no Sinnoh Megas! It's getting on my nerves!" - Taunie

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