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TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#14001: Mar 4th 2016 at 8:43:26 PM

Except their Tibet and Russia examples are full of holes. Tibet the Rebellion never stopped and civilians still gave them succor. They still conduct anti-insurgency operations in Tibet because of it. The Soviet Union used jack booted tactics and had more then a few rebellions in the Ukraine they had two. If anything it created far more problems then it solved in the long term and only fostered a life long hatred of both groups that is still spawning insurgents against them to this day.

Who watches the watchmen?
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#14003: Mar 4th 2016 at 9:25:17 PM

One point of correction regarding the Zero vs the Wildcat or Warhawk: The Zero was slower than both. She could get close to the Wildcat's top speed, but only at the cost of all of her maneuverability. This is why hit-and-run and diving attacks were the rule of the day for American air combat doctrine in the Pacific. The Zero could outmaneuver either plane, and her cannons could lay in some nasty damage if they connected, but that was only helpful if the American obligingly allowed the Japanese pilot to catch up with them long enough to line up a shot.

Also, the shark faces on the Warhawks gave +10 to Attack.

In any case, later models of Wildcat standardized on a loadout of six heavy machine guns (sort of the US military's go-to load for fighters) and only got faster and faster with each successive model until the P-40N entered production near the end of the war. Curtiss didn't keep selling the things because the USAAF needed more cannon fodder to throw at the Japanese, they kept selling them because the design was successful.

edited 4th Mar '16 9:28:46 PM by AFP

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#14004: Mar 4th 2016 at 9:45:19 PM

Saber; No this is the right thread. You posted the article on the last page and Tom is still fixated on stagnated Le May style tactics.

Who watches the watchmen?
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#14006: Mar 4th 2016 at 10:43:42 PM

Saber; Doesn't help that the various threads are pretty much the same bunch basically chatting about similar topics in a broad sense.

That heavy handed COIN is definitely a nasty stick in the short term but being forced to constantly sit on them as you noted is expensive and doesn't stop them from finding other ways to strike back. Like suicide bombings and other sneaky bastard tricks.

Hell even the Romans had to deal with that kind of nuttery the ancient world is just lucky the Roman's didn't have bombers.

Who watches the watchmen?
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#14007: Mar 5th 2016 at 12:16:50 AM

[up][up] I recall reading that the Commonwealth's Spitfires, Seafires, and Hurricanes were a Worthy Opponent to the Zero/Reisen throughout the Pacific War. The Spitfires and Seafires could essentially go toe-to-toe with Zeroes, but were otherwise a rarer sight in the Pacific compared to the US-designed aircraft. In fact, one of the very last Allied casualties of World War II was a Fleet Air Arm Seafire pilot shot down in the week before the Japanese surrender.

Saburo Sakai's memoirs are a must-read for any aviation enthusiast. It's worth mentioning that his fame doesn't derive from being the most successful Japanese ace - the top-scoring pilots all were killed - but the one to actually survive the war with experiences fighting nearly every opponent of Japan.

To allude to the earlier mention of Japanese pilots typically having to fly huge distances to combat, Sakai writes that Zero pilots made these treks by ascending to the highest possible attitude and slowing their engines down to save fuel.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#14008: Mar 5th 2016 at 1:40:46 AM

[up]

In fact, one of the very last Allied casualties of World War II was a Fleet Air Arm Seafire pilot shot down in the week before the Japanese surrender.

In fact, there was a Seafire pilot shot down the day of the Japanese surrender. He was shot by the Japanese later that day. The Japanese officers were aware of the surrender.


@ Tom: Which US Presidental candidate (if any) do you currently support?

edited 5th Mar '16 4:03:24 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#14009: Mar 5th 2016 at 4:50:46 AM

Hell even the Romans had to deal with that kind of nuttery the ancient world is just lucky the Roman's didn't have bombers.

Things like this happened to the Romans in Judea, coincidentally it was also the brutality of the Sicarii that drove the public opinion against them.

On the Wildcat vs the Zero, it really didn't help the Zero pilots that the Wildcat pilots enjoyed climbing up and coming down at the Zeros at stupidly high speeds the Zero couldn't match.

Inter arma enim silent leges
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#14010: Mar 5th 2016 at 5:44:53 AM

Regarding diving attacks, it's a fun bit of trivia to point out that the Hawker Tempest and the Mustang could both outrun an Me-262 in a power dive.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#14011: Mar 5th 2016 at 6:55:06 AM

Angelus: Like most extremists the Sicarii were less interested in the general public opinion overall and more about the disaffected. Of course what ultimately happened out there can be partly laid at their feet. The Romans eventually brought the boot down. Like I said it is a good thing the Romans never had access to bomber air fleets.

As for American planes they were in most cases better protected then their Japanese counterparts. I recall someone pointing out the Wild Cats were good momentum fighters or something along those lines. When properly used they were very capable even against faster opponents. The A6M was fast and long legged but it achieved that with no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. The American fighter craft tended to pack .50 cal machine guns. Those guns also tended to be firing at least one form of incendiary round as part of an airplanes ammo load out and had longer effective engagement ranges then the rifle caliber machine guns on other fighter craft. The A6m was known to easily catch fire and/or explode when hit by enemy fire.

DARPA taps Aurora Flight Sciences for vertical lift development program. Strange looking craft using electric ducted fans in an odd ball wing design. The interesting part the electricity is from a single engine inside the craft used by the Osprey.

edited 5th Mar '16 7:01:46 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#14012: Mar 5th 2016 at 7:07:18 AM

[up]Yeah, the Sicarii pissed people off hard enough to get even the other Hebrews throwing them at the Romans.

On the planes: The Zero didn't have self sealing fuel tanks like the other Allies and Axis fighters did, which means that if a round ruptured the fuel tanks it would leak flammable fuel everywhere.

Inter arma enim silent leges
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#14013: Mar 5th 2016 at 7:10:57 AM

Even worse if that rupture in the tank was from an incendiary round.

Who watches the watchmen?
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#14014: Mar 5th 2016 at 7:12:00 AM

Of course, even without that, many parts of an airplane get very hot. Parts of the engine, the guns, etc. Planes have spontaneously burst into flames from fuel leaking somewhere it shouldn't have even without being shot at.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#14015: Mar 5th 2016 at 7:17:18 AM

True but having your pressurized fuel tanks turn into a own goal flame thrower is definitely high on the list of brown pants moments for pilots.

Who watches the watchmen?
Flanker66 Dreams of Revenge from 30,000 feet and climbing Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Dreams of Revenge
#14016: Mar 5th 2016 at 7:23:32 AM

I find it kind of interesting that American aircraft seem to have traditionally boasted an excess of thrust with the obvious knock-on effects (with that tendency being amplified with the arrival of "big sleds" like the F-4, F-105, etc.).

Locking you up on radar since '09
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#14017: Mar 5th 2016 at 7:39:42 AM

We've also had agility fighters throughout our history. The first fighter plane in US service, the Nieuport 28, was one such plane. She was also allegedly something of a death trap, with an engine that could burst into flames and an upper wing that would delaminate during rough maneuvering. When the SPAD VIII was introduced, it lead to much infighting between the pursuit squadrons regarding which plane should be adopted (to the total exclusion of the other, natch).

Interestingly, this aligned with a culture-clash early on between American squadrons trained in France by French instructors and American squadrons trained in the US and Canada by British and Canadian instructors. The British-trained squadrons preferred the agile deathtrap (which had other advantages running for it, like a minimal engine warmup time and the ability to basically jump to altitude from the parking spot at a moment's notice), while the French-trained squadrons were more risk-adverse and preferred the SPAD's relative ruggedness and speed for hit-and-run engagements.

IIRC, one of Teddy Roosevelt's sons died flying a Nieuport 28 in France. I want to say Frank Luke, one of the early aviators to win the Medal of Honor, died in a SPAD.

Other agility fighters of note in US service include but are not limited to the Boeing P-26 Peashooter (at least one Japanese Zero managed to get swatted by one of those goofy looking things over the Philippine Islands), F-5 Freedom Fighter, F-16 Fighting Falcon, and the F/A-18 Hornet (though the Hornet was always meant to be more of an attack jet that could give enemy fighter pilots second thoughts about getting too comfortable near them).


On a historical note, on this day in 1942, the first Civil Air Patrol Coastal Patrol mission was flown by Major Hugh R. Sharp, Jr., Operations officer for the newly-christened Coastal Patrol Squadron No. 2, established at Rehoboth, Delaware. On their first mission, the CAP crew were only able to spot cold choppy waters and oil slicks most likely from recently sunk oil tankers.

By the time the Coastal Patrol squadrons were stood down in August of 1943, they had spotted 91 ships in distress, 173 German U-Boats, assisted in the rescue of 363 sailors, and were credited with the sinking of two German subs. In exchange, CAP lost 26 airmen.

edited 5th Mar '16 7:45:34 AM by AFP

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#14019: Mar 5th 2016 at 10:59:04 PM

From The Other Wiki, Johnson 14 rules:

Johnson's famed "down-to-brass-tacks" management style was summed up by his motto, "Be quick, be quiet, and be on time." He ran Skunk Works by "Kelly's 14 Rules"

  • The Skunk Works manager must be delegated practically complete control of his program in all aspects. He should report to a division president or higher.
  • Strong but small project offices must be provided both by the military and industry.
  • The number of people having any connection with the project must be restricted in an almost vicious manner. Use a small number of good people (10% to 25% compared to the so-called normal systems).
  • A very simple drawing and drawing release system with great flexibility for making changes must be provided.
  • There must be a minimum number of reports required, but important work must be recorded thoroughly.
  • There must be a monthly cost review covering not only what has been spent and committed but also projected costs to the conclusion of the program. Don't have the books 90 days late, and don't surprise the customer with sudden overruns.
  • The contractor must be delegated and must assume more than normal responsibility to get good vendor bids for subcontract on the project. Commercial bid procedures are very often better than military ones.
  • The inspection system as currently used by the Skunk Works, which has been approved by both the Air Force and Navy, meets the intent of existing military requirements and should be used on new projects. Push more basic inspection responsibility back to subcontractors and vendors. Don't duplicate so much inspection.
  • The contractor must be delegated the authority to test his final product in flight. He can and must test it in the initial stages. If he doesn't, he rapidly loses his competency to design other vehicles.
  • The specifications applying to the hardware must be agreed to well in advance of contracting. The Skunk Works practice of having a specification section stating clearly which important military specification items will not knowingly be complied with and reasons therefore is highly recommended.
  • Funding a program must be timely so that the contractor doesn't have to keep running to the bank to support government projects.
  • There must be mutual trust between the military project organization and the contractor with very close cooperation and liaison on a day-to-day basis. This cuts down misunderstanding and correspondence to an absolute minimum.
  • Access by outsiders to the project and its personnel must be strictly controlled by appropriate security measures.
  • Because only a few people will be used in engineering and most other areas, ways must be provided to reward good performance by pay not based on the number of personnel supervised.

And the unofficial "15th rule": "Starve before doing business with the damned Navy. They don't know what the hell they want and will drive you up a wall before they break either your heart or a more exposed part of your anatomy."

edited 5th Mar '16 10:59:54 PM by TairaMai

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#14020: Mar 6th 2016 at 4:01:55 AM

@Tam

Malaya had extremely favourable geography and demographics for counter-insurgency. Once the British managed to force the Communists into the jungle and removed their bases of support through the New Villages program (copied by the Americans as Strategic Hamlets), it was relatively simple to starve them out. Contrast Vietnam, which had unpatrollable borders and a hostile state backing up the insurgency.

edited 6th Mar '16 4:02:19 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TamH70 Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#14021: Mar 6th 2016 at 5:35:34 AM

There's no such thing as an uncontrollable border in the sense that I think you're alluding to. Free movement of weapons and people across borders can be heavily curtailed, if not eliminated, when the needlessly complex and frankly stupid controls on what American troops could do to hinder such movements during the majority of the Vietnam war do not exist.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#14022: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:27:44 AM

[up]I suppose trying to capture chokepoints along the Ho Chi Minh trail would have accomplished more than US efforts to mine and crater it.

Vaping is now officially banned on all US commercial flights.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#14023: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:43:05 AM

Ah vaping, the problem isn't that there is nicotine in the vapor, it's that people who vape EXHALE just like smokers. In a plane, fresh air is in short supply so I can see why vaping is treated like smoking.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#14024: Mar 6th 2016 at 9:26:10 AM

Plus someone's going to scream fire in a crowded metal tube.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#14025: Mar 6th 2016 at 9:42:41 PM

Or the flavor like "polar bear toenail" (read: mint, eucalyptus and menthol) or some other exotic flavor will send some poor sap into a coughing fit...

"Not Making This Up" Disclaimer: that is the name for a local "vape" flavor...

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....

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