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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#63976: May 7th 2022 at 3:56:37 AM

That said, I am sure I've seen the suggestion to do this but as a long-term (many months) project. The MiGs are mainly meant as a short term fix.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#63977: May 7th 2022 at 4:42:37 AM

That, and "The Ukrainians aren't trained on Western Aircraft" isn't as true as people assume, given quite a few did spend a fairly goodsized chunk of the last eight years stateside training alongside USAF and Air National Guard units.

Ofc, I believe that's more a likelihood of getting Multirole fighters like the F-16, though, rather than something incredibly specialized like an A-10. Tactical Flexibility, manoeuvrability and speed is more important for their needs.

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#63978: May 7th 2022 at 5:09:13 AM

I doubt we'll be sending the Ukrainians full aircraft anytime soon.

That's a red line even the current Polish government seem wary to cross.

Oh really when?
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#63979: May 7th 2022 at 5:28:12 AM

Slovaks are willing. Course, even if they do get 'em, I doubt it'd be announced anyways.

We've seen a few things show up in Ukraine thusfar that weren't, and the less that's publicly known about the UAF getting new fighter aircraft, the better it is for them anyways.

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#63980: May 7th 2022 at 5:33:29 AM

[up][up] The problem there (from what I understand) was less reluctance on Poland's behalf so much as it was that the original deal was the US agreeing to provide a fleet of F-16's they don't currently have operational for a variety of reasons as replacements, and since those airframes that were due to be sent to Ukraine are part of Poland's current inventory of air superiority fighters, they'd be reducing their own capabilities in order to arm Ukraine, and that so far has been a fairly standard "red line" for NATO countries.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#63981: May 7th 2022 at 5:38:32 AM

Aye, during the discussions in Slovakia on whether to deliver its own MiG-29 planes to Ukraine the ability of defending their own airspace has been the front-and-centre concern and if my understanding is correct a deal with Poland on this matter is necessary. Escalation risks are not the principal issue and if memory serves, it's not even clear that they were the principal issue during the scuppered deal with Poland.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#63982: May 7th 2022 at 6:10:00 AM

iirc, it was more the fact Poland wanted to hand them to the States, and hand them over via Germany, which the Germans took issue with.

The Slovaks meanwhile woulda just tossed them over the border.

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#63983: May 7th 2022 at 7:01:26 AM

I don't know if any A-10's could be transferred to Ukraine, or whether that's the best use of resources right now, but tactically the A-10's would not need to bust any tanks. They just have to bust the fuel tankers and the supplies trucks, and I'm pretty sure they can do that. Even IFV's are much easier to kill, and tanks go nowhere without infantry.

'Course, someone has to ride interference on the AA defenses.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#63984: May 7th 2022 at 7:24:17 AM

Hence why F-16s (which Ukraine's asked for) would be a better idea anyways, because they're Multirole fighters that could be used for a variety of things, rather than just CAS, and they'd still do just as well blowing up said Tanker Trucks and so on.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1522952544238153728 Latest announced US shipment has "Counter-Artillery Systems." Likely the C-RAM.

Edited by Pendrake on May 7th 2022 at 8:20:39 AM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#63985: May 7th 2022 at 9:40:53 AM

New York Times: U.S. Presses Taiwan to Buy Weapons More Suited to Win Against China. Of course, the calibre of the gear doesn't matter nearly as much as the calibre of the four-month conscripts crewing them — so the Taiwanese military has that going for them, at least.

    Article 
WASHINGTON — The Biden administration is quietly pressing the Taiwanese government to order American-made weapons that would help its small military repel a seaborne invasion by China rather than weapons designed for conventional set-piece warfare, current and former U.S. and Taiwanese officials say.

The U.S. campaign to shape Taiwan’s defenses has grown in urgency since the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine ordered in late February by President Vladimir V. Putin. The war has convinced Washington and Taipei that a Chinese invasion of Taiwan in the coming years is now a potential danger — and that a smaller military with the right weapons that has adopted a strategy of asymmetric warfare, in which it focuses on mobility and precision attacks, can beat back a larger foe.

American officials are re-examining the capabilities of the Taiwanese military to determine whether it can fight off an invasion, as Ukrainian forces have been doing.

President Tsai Ing-wen of Taiwan is trying to orient the country’s military toward asymmetric warfare and has moved to buy a large number of mobile, lethal weapons that are difficult to target and counter.

But some Taiwanese defense officials are resistant. And U.S. officials have decided that certain weapons systems the Taiwanese Defense Ministry has tried to order — the MH-60R Seahawk helicopter made by Lockheed Martin, for example — are not suited for warfare against the Chinese military.

The U.S. officials have warned their Taiwanese counterparts that the State Department would reject such requests. They have also told American weapons makers to refrain from asking U.S. agencies to approve Taiwanese orders of certain arms. The procurement process is complex, with many parties weighing in.

The push by the Biden administration has broadened and accelerated similar efforts by officials in the Trump and Obama administrations. Democratic and Republican officials and lawmakers say one lesson of the Ukraine war is the United States must help transform Taiwan into a “porcupine” to deter potential attacks from China.

The nine current and former American and Taiwanese officials familiar with the discussions spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the negotiations.

“I sense there has been a shift,” said Bonnie S. Glaser, an East Asia analyst at the German Marshall Fund of the United States. “It started before the invasion of Ukraine, but I think it has really, really solidified since then. There has been this wake-up call in the Pentagon to make sure Taiwan is serious, and we need to get serious too.”

State Department and Pentagon officials have been involved in the discussions with the Taiwanese government. Lawmakers and congressional aides have delivered similar messages. The Biden administration also sent a bipartisan delegation of five former senior national security officials to Taiwan in early March to talk to Ms. Tsai and other officials about the country’s defense strategy and weapons procurement, among other matters.

“Continuing to pursue systems that will not meaningfully contribute to an effective defense strategy is inconsistent with the evolving security threat that Taiwan faces,” a State Department representative said in a statement. “As such, the United States strongly supports Taiwan’s efforts to implement an asymmetric defense strategy.”

Another State Department official said conversations with Taiwan on weapons took place early in the Biden administration, and both governments are now looking at lessons learned from the Ukraine war.

For decades, Communist-ruled China has vowed to bring Taiwan, a democratic island with de facto independence that is a U.S. partner, under its control. While there is no sign that war is imminent, President Xi Jinping of China has adopted a more aggressive foreign policy than his predecessors, and U.S. officials fear he might invade Taiwan to seal his legacy.

The Taiwan Relations Act of 1979 obligates the U.S. government to provide equipment of a defensive nature to Taiwan. Every administration since then has maintained a policy of “strategic ambiguity” on the question of military intervention — meaning they have not explicitly said whether the U.S. military would defend Taiwan if China attacked.

President Biden has said he would keep U.S. troops out of the fight in Ukraine but has authorized shipments of small, mobile weapons that have helped Ukrainian forces defeat the Russian military in critical battles, including around Kyiv, the capital. The Ukrainian military has used an asymmetric strategy to great effect, mounting a dogged resistance against Russian tanks, fighter jets and battalion groups. Ukraine’s arsenal includes Javelin and Stinger missiles as well as armed drones.

A Chinese invasion of Taiwan would differ from the Russian military’s efforts in Ukraine and be more difficult. Chinese warships would have to cross more than 100 miles of water in the Taiwan Strait and land forces on the island. The Chinese and Taiwanese sides of the strait are bristling with missiles aimed at each other, and the United States and allied nations regularly send warships through the waterway as a show of force.

Resupplying weapons to a besieged Taiwan, an island, could prove more difficult for the United States and its allies than it has been in Ukraine. As a result, some officials are considering stockpiling large amounts of munitions in Taiwan.

In 2019, the State Department authorized a $2.2 billion sale of weapons to Taiwan that included 108 M 1 A 2 Abrams tanks. Some U.S. officials at the time privately criticized the sale, saying that if Chinese forces advance far enough in an invasion that Taiwan has to use tanks, then the island would probably be doomed.

Many of Taiwan’s more recent orders have been in line with an asymmetric strategy. But some Taiwanese officials continue to press American officials on requests for expensive, conventional platforms like the Abrams tanks.

Several defense experts in Taiwan argue that the island will need some traditional systems to prepare for different war scenarios involving China.

“We have accepted many of the recommendations from the United States, but we still need to have some space to make preparations for the possibility of other, longer-term scenarios,” said Chieh Chung, a security analyst with the National Policy Foundation in Taipei. He said he was worried that the Ukraine war had caused Americans to dig in even deeper on the idea of asymmetry, without considering Taiwan’s specific needs.

“Our artillery systems are so old. They need to be upgraded,” he added. “How can you ask us to take World War II-era equipment to defend against China?”

On Thursday, Chiu Kuo-cheng, the defense minister, told Parliament that the ministry had dropped a plan to buy the MH-60R helicopters because they were too expensive. He did not mention that American officials had been pushing Taiwan not to buy the helicopters. American and Taiwanese officials are also debating whether Taiwan should buy E-2D aircraft made by Northrop Grumman.

In recent weeks, Taiwanese officials have expressed their own frustrations with the U.S. government and American weapons makers, complaining of delivery delays and unfilled orders. Ms. Tsai herself has sent messages to Washington, officials said.

Mr. Chiu said two arms orders had been delayed. One is a purchase of M109A6 Paladin self-propelled howitzers, made by BAE Systems, that U.S. officials said was being held up because of inadequate production capacity, according to Taiwanese officials. The defense ministry said it was now considering several alternatives offered by the United States, including HIMARS rocket artillery launchers. BAE Systems told Defense News this past week that it had the capacity to build the howitzers for Taiwan.

An order of Stinger antiaircraft missiles has also been delayed, Mr. Chiu said.

Ukraine has asked for regular shipments of Javelin and Stinger missiles, and the Biden administration is providing them. Mr. Chiu said Taiwan had already signed a contract for Stingers and paid for them. The State Department official said the Ukraine war has not affected Taiwan’s order.

Stingers are among the kinds of weapons that U.S. officials have encouraged Taiwan to order. The Americans have also pushed Taiwan to buy Harpoon anti-ship missiles made by Boeing. In April, Ukrainian forces sank a Russian flagship, the Moskva, by using Neptune anti-ship missiles, which are made in Ukraine. That attack, which was carried out with the help of intelligence provided by the Americans, has been a signature moment in the war.

Some U.S. officials say Taiwan should also increase its purchases of coastal air-defense missile systems, armed drones and sea mines.

“The question is: How focused are you on asymmetric warfare compared to other priorities?” said Evan S. Medeiros, a senior Asia director on President Barack Obama’s National Security Council.

Suspicions in Washington and Taipei of China’s intentions toward Taiwan have increased during the Ukraine war because Chinese officials have consistently supported Mr. Putin’s rationales for his invasion and helped spread disinformation and conspiracy theories that favor Russia.

On Feb. 4, as Mr. Xi and Mr. Putin met in Beijing before the start of the Winter Olympics, their two governments released a joint statement that said their partnership had “no limits.” A line said Russia affirmed that Taiwan “is an inalienable part of China.”

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#63986: May 7th 2022 at 11:32:54 AM

I keep seeing rumors recently that both Ukraine and Russia are deploying off route AT mines. The Russians are supposedly using their version of the US M93 Hornet and the Ukrainians are using a German made mine that is basically a short-range disposable rocket launcher. However I can't anything concrete that either is in use.

Who watches the watchmen?
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#63987: May 7th 2022 at 11:34:29 AM

I've been hearing rumors that the Ukrainians have been using German mines for a week or so and seen some pictures but nothing that could be probably geotagged to Ukraine as far as I'm aware.

Oh really when?
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#63988: May 7th 2022 at 12:16:09 PM

I don't know if any A-10's could be transferred to Ukraine,

Under the 2021 NDAA the Air Force is expressly prohibited from disposing of any of its A-10s so I would say no.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Imca (Veteran)
#63989: May 7th 2022 at 1:39:08 PM

Guys agian.

Non credible defence, the thing that started all this... is a meme site.

It is not real, your debating an onion article essentialy.

No A-10 are going any where.

Damn this is frustrating and shows how missinfo spreads on social media so fast.... it's even right there in there name non credible defence.

Gods two weeks ago they had a hilarious thing about how the SDF was training giant crabs so that we could tow russian warships away from the islands after learning from the Ukrainians and there tractors... that's the level of seriousness the site has.

Edited by Imca on May 7th 2022 at 1:41:10 AM

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#63990: May 7th 2022 at 1:49:13 PM

Problem is that these days the memes are the only thing keeping the A-10 alive when it's not beyond the capability of anyone at the various contractors to figure out an equally capable replacement.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#63991: May 7th 2022 at 1:50:33 PM

Super Tucano

Oh really when?
Imca (Veteran)
#63992: May 7th 2022 at 2:01:30 PM

Going to have to disagree there, the arguments agianst it all focus on how the gun is usless agianst tanks... but like here is the thing.

There is a substantial number of objects on a battlefeild that get this... arent tanks, quite a few of which are even rated for auto-canons that the GAU-8 can still go through.... that something like the .50s on the supertucano can not, most things in the IFV family for instance.

Plus, just its existance helps soilder morale, which is a pretty hard thing to quantify in numbers but well... russia is doing a pretty good job of demonstrating just how important morale is.

Personaly, I would agree that the A-10 is old, outdated, and needs replacement... but I do also think there is still merit to giving a big ass gun wings.

...

Personaly I would just make it a drone though.

Edited by Imca on May 7th 2022 at 2:02:40 AM

Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#63993: May 7th 2022 at 2:11:33 PM

That, and the A-10 IS incredibly durable for an aircraft. Rather stupidly so, in fact.

[up] Turkish Akinci seems to be muscling in on that, or the new American "Mojave" drone (bigger sister of the Reaper).

Edited by Pendrake on May 7th 2022 at 2:12:40 AM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#63994: May 7th 2022 at 2:26:28 PM

Eh, not really. The A-10's famous titanium bathtub is rated to resist 23mm at a distance.

Even with it's redundancies and sturdy construction it's not much tougher than any other plane is in the year 2022, the threats it was built to protect against are old and have long been replaced by newer and deadlier platforms and you can make a strong argument it wasn't strong enough to protect against them in the first place.

Oh really when?
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#63995: May 7th 2022 at 2:42:07 PM

Well, it's more the fact one managed to stay flying missing almost an entire wing. Something the F-15's also done (though in the F-15's case, that's also because the primary fuselage is fairly capable of providing lift on its own).

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#63996: May 7th 2022 at 2:54:44 PM

And?

Oh really when?
eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#63997: May 7th 2022 at 2:59:15 PM

Oh hey there, Survivability Onion.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
Pendrake That Guy from "Sweet Something of.... Someplace!" (Canada) Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Betrayed by Delilah
That Guy
#63998: May 7th 2022 at 3:15:10 PM

Hmm, looking over that list, interesting to see that the US military was still using a twin-boom light attack aircraft in the Gulf War, the OV-10 Bronco.

Apparently a few have even seen action as lately as Syria.

Notably actually has a relationship with the aforementioned Super Tucano, as the Venezuelans still use the OV-10 and wanted to replace it with said plane, but due to US political pressure, instead are trying replace them with Mi-28 Attack Helicopters.

Edited by Pendrake on May 7th 2022 at 3:38:00 AM

Semper Fi. Semper Paratus. Vigilo Confido.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#63999: May 7th 2022 at 4:15:10 PM

I have a bit of favor for the USMC Night Observation Gunship variant of the Bronco. Neat little patrol craft with slaved to FLIR sight 20mm gun.

Who watches the watchmen?
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#64000: May 7th 2022 at 7:34:04 PM

The problem with the A-10 is that the niche it was designed to fill no longer exists. That's why its capabilities are unique — because they're no longer useful.

tldr, the two defining characteristics of the A-10 are the armor and the big gun, and neither makes sense anymore. You don't need the armor because speed and stealth are better defenses, and you don't need the big gun because it's either overkill (and you're better off with a smaller, lighter gun) or insufficient (and you need to drop bombs anyway).

There are basically two scenarios for close air support. Either you have complete airspace control (including against ground threats) or you don't. If you don't have complete control, then you're doing close air support by dropping precision-guided smart munitions from high altitude at high speed to avoid being an easy target. Any jet can do this, and in fact the A-10 isn't a great choice for it, since it has to carry around a huge gun and armor plating that it doesn't need for that mission, when it could be carrying more bombs and/or fuel instead.

If you do have complete control of the airspace, then you want to go as low and slow as possible (for better accuracy) while carrying as much ordinance and fuel as possible (so you can spend more time providing support instead of returning to base to refuel and rearm), while also doing this as cheaply as possible. Any jet is bad for this, since turboprop aircraft can go lower and slower than jets, and are cheaper to both buy and to fly. This would be the concept behind the Super Tucano that Garcon mentioned.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

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