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Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#61026: Apr 10th 2021 at 9:08:46 PM

The title sounds like an attention grabber more than an actual declaration. Sounds like France is just rushing to modernize in anticipation of some future conflict they might have to intervene in.

Just Having Fun
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#61027: Apr 10th 2021 at 9:25:47 PM

France hasn't forgotten nor forgiven Russia's election meddling.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#61028: Apr 10th 2021 at 10:31:46 PM

...Gotta say, I've read enough about Vietnam (albeit not lately) to be very leery of this trend towards shifting military readiness back towards more conventional conflicts on the assumption that a Second Cold War is plausible. Because that didn't work out so well last time.

Edited by nrjxll on Apr 10th 2021 at 12:32:11 PM

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#61029: Apr 10th 2021 at 10:38:43 PM

[up]Ironically, Vietnam will be our ally against China.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#61030: Apr 10th 2021 at 10:38:55 PM

Plausible? It's happening now.

Oh really when?
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#61031: Apr 10th 2021 at 10:40:27 PM

I mean, that's not really ironic.

As far as I'm aware, China has been Vietnam's primary threat for ages. Their past conflicts with France or the US are temporary by comparison.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 10th 2021 at 7:41:05 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#61032: Apr 10th 2021 at 10:48:05 PM

China has been the primary threat to Vietnam's existence since long before there was a United States.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#61033: Apr 10th 2021 at 10:54:26 PM

Heck, even before there was a Vietnam to speak of.

Germany's and France's (defunct) "Erbfeindschaft" is a bloody joke by comparison.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 10th 2021 at 7:55:24 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#61034: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:03:25 PM

"I want to ride the strong winds, crush the angry waves, slay the killer whales in the Eastern sea, chase away the Wu army, reclaim the land, remove the yoke of slavery. I will not bend my back to be a slave."

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#61035: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:04:20 PM

Vietnam has fought the Chinese seventeen times and won, regards it as its oldest enemy, is still deeply hurt over the surprise 1979 invasion, and regards beating the Mongols as simply defeating the Chinese yet again.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#61036: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:06:02 PM

[up] And there's stuff like the CCP backing Pol Pot...

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 10th 2021 at 8:06:12 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#61037: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:06:20 PM

Vietnam has always been Properly Paranoid when it comes to mainland China.

And yes, I'm making a point of not just saying "CCP" this time. Vietnam's conflicts with mainland China precede the CCP's existence.

To Vietnam, the CCP are presumably just the latest authoritarians running China.

Edited by M84 on Apr 11th 2021 at 2:06:53 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#61038: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:10:21 PM

It's not just the CCP, tbf. The wider anti-Vietnamese insurgency in Cambodia (including Norodom Sihanouk's royalist faction) also got help from Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#61039: Apr 11th 2021 at 9:19:45 AM

Kind of a niche content, but here's a pretty neat simulator manual for the ZSU-23-4 Shilka.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#61040: Apr 11th 2021 at 9:40:19 AM

There's a non-significant chance that France may also be sucked into a Sino-Taiwanese War, because they're a crucial source of warships (the La Fayette frigates) and fighter aircraft (Mirages) for the ROCN and ROCAF.

France has also deployed warships and submarines into the South China Sea to join the US-led Freedom of Navigation operations.

eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#61041: Apr 11th 2021 at 9:50:59 AM

France is just about the most problematic of Taiwan's defence suppliers, though. The Mirage 2000s are '80s vintage aircraft that suffer from high operational costs and lack of ongoing support from the French side for their wear and tear, let alone upgrades.

And the procurement of the La Fayette frigates (known locally as the Kang Ding class) in the '90s was a tragicomedy for the ages, involving hundreds of millions of dollars in bribes and leaving behind a trail of dead French contractors and Taiwanese naval officers in its wake.

No, your eyes are not deceiving you: that is indeed a Chaparral launcher comprising the frigate's entire air defence capability, thanks to the above procurement shenanigans. Although they're fortunately working on replacing it with the locally-developed, Sea Sparrow-equivalent Tien Chien II SAM in vertical launch cells.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#61042: Apr 11th 2021 at 7:19:51 PM

I have a reality check question.

Context

The Kane's Wrath expansion pack of Command & Conquer: Tiberium Wars introduces the Steel Talons as a playable sub-faction of the Global Defense Initiative. GDI is implicitly if not explicitly modelled after real-world conventional first-world militaries like the US Armed Forces, while the Steel Talons is described as a GDI "division" or "battalion" (the text uses both terms in the same paragraph) that's dedicated to field-testing experimental (presumably bleeding-edge) military technology (chiefly mechanized walkers in-game). The Steel Talons division/battalion was created some time after GDI won the Second Tiberium War to satisfy a Military Maverick commander's staunch resistance to the slashing of the combat technology R&D budget in favor of funding the reclamation of the Tiberium-infested Earth, and some of the technologies that they've field-tested have since been approved for wide-scale adoption by the rest of GDI forces.

The Question

Is there anything in the various real-life militaries that is remotely analogous to GDI's Steel Talons, i.e. a command, formation or unit that is explicitly organized for field-testing bleeding-edge military technology (whether in general or limited to specific kinds of tech, e.g. fighter aircraft for the Air Force) to determine whether or not to proceed with full-scale production/adoption?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#61043: Apr 11th 2021 at 7:51:57 PM

Not exactly, no.

Generally preliminary testing is done by the company producing the equipment or vehicle or what have you, often with a subsidy from Uncle Sam but not always.

Then they're usually submitted for evaluation by the government for whatever program is ongoing and they're tested by whatever branch or department is asking for the new toy. This kinda stuff is usually stuff like torture tests, basic operation test, and general evaluation and is generally held in the US in controlled conditions.

After that those that do well might get a limited production run and sent to select units in the field. That selection usually depends on where the unit is operating during that time and what they're doing. What they're usually looking for is something that'll provide a good and harsh environment for the equipment to be used in actual anger but not used during a mission that's too important to risk stuff breaking down. Nobody wants a critical spearhead to collapse because your new shiny tank decides to shit the bed.

After that they do any revisions, some extra testing, etc.

Then of course the project gets shut down because nobody wants to pay for it and we can just keep using M4s forever right? tongue

Oh really when?
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#61044: Apr 11th 2021 at 7:55:56 PM

Generally it's a bad idea to take bleeding edge into actual combat without exhaustive testing first.

The short story "Superiority" by Arthur C. Clarke is based entirely on it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#61045: Apr 11th 2021 at 8:06:28 PM

Edwards is home to several squadrons that test aircraft and ordinance for the Air Force. Any AF vet can tell you more.

How the Army gets a prototype into soldier's hands:

The Army stood up the Futures Command because testing was ad-hoc: each Army branch had their own testing units and protocols. Futures command is to be an umbrella organization to look at "bleeding edge" technology. PEO Solider is "program office" that looks at a specific issue. There is one for soldiers, one for "lower tier" missile defense, there are other offices that come and go as the Army needs them. The Army will have some special units (e.g. the program office) or contractors play with bleeding edge tech - see here: Project Convergence 2021 to feature flight-based rotary cannon. But this is for ideas, concepts or a piece of kit that's still to "bleeding edge" to be trusted with line units.

When a new system (weapon, sensor or vehicle) is ready to be fielded but was developed that for a new role, contractors are still involved but a special Army unit is "stood up" to do the testing, usually under a command in charge of that Army branch (30th ADA for Air Defense for example). Once the prototype testing and proof of concept is done, Army Forces Command (FORSCOM) will create a new unit (either with a new logo or they'll pick a unit logo for it's history) and fill that with soldiers for LUT. LUT is Limited User Testing - put the system/weapon/vehicle in the hands of Joes and see how it works. It's at this stage that the Tech Manual and Field Manuals get written with the help of the soldiers. Soon other units are stood up and the system if fielded.

If the new prototype is to replace an existing system/weapon/sensor/vehicle - the process is the same until LUT. An existing unit is pulled from their rotations/training and they get sent to to the Limited User Test. Then as the test goes well, other units get the new prototype as the system gradually replaces the old one. National Guard units may get it if the Army thinks that it's necessary - one PA Guard unit was the first to get the Stryker before the rest of the Guard.

The point of LUT and the fielding process is that the soldiers will someday be instructors. The Army's tech school - Advanced Individual Training (AIT) - has a cadre of soldiers who teach the system and it's doctrine to new soldiers just out of boot camp. It's required that cadre have worked on and used the system they are teaching. My AIT instructors were either combat vets or soldiers who had years working on the system. Officers have BOLC (Basic Officer Leader Course) where those instructors are also veterans who have used the system - either in peacetime or have fired shots in anger.

Edited by TairaMai on Apr 11th 2021 at 9:20:23 AM

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#61046: Apr 11th 2021 at 8:52:54 PM
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#61047: Apr 11th 2021 at 9:03:03 PM

Also the whole Steel Talons lore is weird because they get described as an experimental unit in some things but then also they're written as being weirdly old fashioned and using almost exclusively obsolete gear.

Their whole bit is that they're mad all the cool walkers from Tiberian Sun got retired for being impractical and they wanna keep using them. Also air power is dumb.

Oh really when?
Teemo from Nottingham, UK (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: In another castle
#61048: Apr 11th 2021 at 10:45:47 PM

Then of course the project gets shut down because nobody wants to pay for it and we can just keep using M4s forever right?
Rifles or tanks?

Imca (Veteran)
#61049: Apr 12th 2021 at 1:09:07 AM

Rifles, M1 for the tanks.

But the problem is the same.

CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#61050: Apr 12th 2021 at 4:06:29 AM

They really should just adopt the HK416.


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