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SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
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#48176: Sep 3rd 2016 at 10:53:57 AM

The Chinese TY-90 missile is a thing; reportedly it's one of the very few air-to-air missiles designed specifically for helicopter duels. With proper tactics modern tanks can at least keep helicopters at arms'-length; the FCS of tank guns and fusing of today's HE and HEAT shells means that each tank is also a mean low-altitude flak gun, and while they're unlikely to hurt low-flying jets, helicopters are well within their engagement envelope.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#48177: Sep 3rd 2016 at 11:08:39 AM

Provided the helicopter obligingly gives you a clear line of sight to engage them. If they have someone spotting for them, they should be able to lob guided missiles from behind terrain. Of course, there's no reason the opposite can't be true for the tanks and their support vehicles.

Just had a funny mental image of someone calling in an artillery strike to deal with enemy helicopters on the other side of a mountain or something. How badly could a barrage of 105mm beehive rounds ruin an attack chopper pilot's week?

SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
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#48178: Sep 3rd 2016 at 11:54:29 AM

Potentially pretty badly! I think it was the threat of direct-fire that led the US to embrace mast-mounted sights, on the Kiowa and the Longbow Apaches. Still lots of helis without them, though, especially in the light utility or recon birds with four-packs of wire-guided missiles strapped to the sides.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#48179: Sep 3rd 2016 at 12:10:34 PM

I'm also sure Apaches could take out fighter jets if they really had to. Not sure where I read that, but I think the US did an exercise and the attack helicopters stomped the fighters.

Wish I could find the report.

New Survey coming this weekend!
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#48180: Sep 3rd 2016 at 12:11:45 PM

The Longbow's radome also enables the use of the more sophisticated versions of the Hellfire II missiles as well as a way to peek above cover.

Who watches the watchmen?
SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
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#48181: Sep 3rd 2016 at 12:24:21 PM

[up][up]Look up J-CATCH. Keep in mind that's with 1970s sensors and weapon seekers, though, which had trouble picking out a slow-moving target against ground clutter. Not the case with modern radar and FLIR.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#48182: Sep 3rd 2016 at 12:25:35 PM

Don't the Apaches carry anti-air missiles on the wingtips? Or was that just Fire Birds?

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#48183: Sep 3rd 2016 at 1:37:12 PM

It is possible for an Apache to carry Stingers though I think they leave off some of their missile load to do so.

I just read up a bit on J-CATCH. Holy shit. Helicopters are really fucking dangerous in their element.

Who watches the watchmen?
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#48184: Sep 3rd 2016 at 1:41:57 PM

So that seen from Metal Gear Solid wasn't so unrealistic after all!

[lol][lol]

New Survey coming this weekend!
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#48185: Sep 3rd 2016 at 1:45:20 PM

[up]Until Twin Snakes happened at least.tongue

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#48186: Sep 3rd 2016 at 1:49:40 PM

Basically the best way to take them on was to stay out of their reach in general. Sounds like SPAAG platforms are still the best bet against Helicopters.

Who watches the watchmen?
SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
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#48187: Sep 3rd 2016 at 1:54:17 PM

Helicopters might be able to ambush jets if the jets are, for whatever reason, constrained to flying low. Maybe they're doing ground-attack, maybe the presence of SAMs means they don't dare to go too high. Add terrain masking, and what you have with a heli is an extremely mobile gun or missile platform with fiendish maneuverability.

Mind, actually hitting the jet isn't easy, unless the jet decides to get in close for a missile or a gun shot. (Older missiles might have trouble locking on; modern imaging-infrared missiles will not, but helicopters can carry light AAMs too, and if the enemy is in range, so are you.) If both aircraft keep their distance from each other, though, things will be different.

Sometimes you might come across reports from the Iran-Iraq War about an Iraqi Hind that supposedly shot down an Iranian jet. What actually happened was that an Iranian Phantom on ground-attack got somewhat close to an Iraqi Hind; the Hind pointed in the direction of the F-4 and loosed all of its 57mm rockets (a full load is 128 rockets), and the F-4 pilot understandably got the hell away from all the fireworks. The story about the encounter spread and mutated after that.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#48188: Sep 3rd 2016 at 2:01:22 PM

[up] Then again, didn't an F-15E take down a Hind with a guided bomb?

Keep Rolling On
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#48189: Sep 3rd 2016 at 2:03:53 PM

Then there are the Heli vs Heli fights that only seemed to have happened during the Iran-Iraq war. Seriously I can't find any other instance of helicopters attacking each other beyond that conflict. They have fought with just about everything short of hot air balloons and rigid airships as far as I know.

edited 3rd Sep '16 2:36:00 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#48190: Sep 3rd 2016 at 2:34:23 PM

And they probably only forewent airships because Goodyear cancelled all of the export deals after the Shah was overthrown. [lol]

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#48191: Sep 4th 2016 at 5:29:51 AM

In regards to the Chinese NCO corps, it does exist, but has been under reformation since the beginning of the decade (as per current policy). Time will tell if that will help at all, and we get to see what they can do in Syria.

If you want to follow what's going on in China generally the Jamestown Foundation's China Brief is useful.

edited 4th Sep '16 5:31:37 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#48192: Sep 4th 2016 at 8:15:27 AM

(Cross-posted from the Aviation thread)

For the 75th anniversary of the Civil Air Patrol this December, the CAP commissioned a commemorative painting depicting a CAP Cessna 182 Skylark performing aerial intercept training with the District of Columbia Air National Guard.

Major General Vasquez, the CAP's National Commander, will present the painting to the Secretary of the Air Force and the Chief of Staff at the Air Force Association Conference this month.

Vanguard is taking pre-orders for a one-time run of signed lithograph prints. I want it, but I can't afford to dish out $100 for it. So I guess I'll just have to settle for the PDF version to turn into a desktop wallpaper.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#48193: Sep 4th 2016 at 9:59:40 AM

Ah. CAP. I remember those days.

I only joined just so I could ride in gliders for free.

tongue[lol]

New Survey coming this weekend!
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#48194: Sep 4th 2016 at 1:03:01 PM

UK special forces pictured on the ground in Syria

The BBC has obtained exclusive pictures showing for the first time British special forces operating on the ground in Syria.

It is the vehicles that first stand out. The open air, [al-]Thalabnote  long range patrol vehicles are built for harsh terrain and are favoured by special forces.

In this case it is British special forces, seen for the first time on the ground, inside Syria, in photographs obtained by the BBC.

The pictures, which date from June, follow an attack by the so-called Islamic State (IS) on the moderate rebel New Syrian Army base of Al Tanaf on the Syria-Iraq border. The British soldiers appear to be securing the base's perimeter.

According to eyewitnesses, they were there in a defensive role. But they are carrying an arsenal of equipment including sniper rifles, heavy machine guns and anti-tank missiles. If IS attacked again they would have been able to put up a considerable fight.

A New Syrian Army's spokesman refused to comment on the pictures of the special forces, but acknowledged their help.

He said: "We are receiving special forces training from our British and American partners. We're also getting weapons and equipment from the Pentagon as well as complete air support."

After viewing the pictures of British fighters at the base, the Ministry of Defence said it wouldn't comment on special forces operations.

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SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
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#48195: Sep 4th 2016 at 10:56:19 PM

Today in squaddie, this happened. Take a good look at where the mortar guy has the baseplate.

I'm willing to bet that there's a story behind that, involving bets and/or drinks.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#48196: Sep 4th 2016 at 11:03:53 PM

It seems less likely to result in injury than misreading the knee mortar's usage instructions, though. tongue

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#48197: Sep 5th 2016 at 12:13:02 AM

You do realise there's no evidence G Is ever actually shot the Knee Mortar off their legs?

"Yup. That tasted purple."
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#48198: Sep 5th 2016 at 5:03:03 AM

Taiwan’s Military Reforms and Strategy: Reset Required

According to recently inaugurated President Tsai Ing-wen, Taiwan’s military is in need of “drastic” reforms to address a number of problems including military officers’ lack of strategic guidance, limited resources, and issues with force structure, training, morale and discipline (Taipei Times, July 5). President Tsai and her administration face serious defense reform issues requiring new and innovative solutions to counter PLA threats and overcome serious problems within the Taiwan military. Under former President Ma Ying-jeou and with the backing of the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT), Taiwan moved toward an all-volunteer force which has encountered serious obstacles that are reducing operational readiness and the capability to defend Taiwan (China Brief, August 23, 2013).

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
MrTerrorist Since: Aug, 2009
#48199: Sep 5th 2016 at 6:46:52 AM

What does "Tier 1" mean in the US Military? Two sources say different things about the meaning.

One says it means the most elite units within the US Special Forces like Seal Team 6 and Delta Force.

However, the other says the first is incorrect due to a misconception by the public, just like how people confuse Defcon 5 for the highest alert when it's actually Defcon 1, as Tier 1 actually means which Military Unit gets the most priority and funds from the yearly US budget.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#48200: Sep 5th 2016 at 9:33:42 AM

The Tiers refers to the secrecy of the operations involved and how much funding they get, not necessarily the skill of the operators themselves, though there is a lot of overlap.

New Survey coming this weekend!

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