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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#2452: Dec 26th 2012 at 3:43:37 PM

Yeah. Filler suggests padding when a decent amount of it is better than a fair amount of the original material. Kai would have been better off keeping some of the "filler" while it shaved off the padding. The Garlic JR saga wasn't quite the worst in the entire series. And frankly I don't think the series is good enough to really have a "pure" version of cannon.

You know the manga is one work and the anime is another. So I'll refer to it as happening in the Dragonball anime or Dragonball Z.

Am I a good man or a bad man?
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2453: Dec 26th 2012 at 3:46:55 PM

Seriously though, what plot holes did filler fix?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#2454: Dec 26th 2012 at 6:15:10 PM

I'll agree that filler can be good when it fleshes out characters and makes for interesting stories. The filler isn't what hurt DBZ; the stalling was.

That being said, I don't like the Garlic Jr. Saga primarily because of its connection to the noncanon Garlic Jr. film. Tying a canon plot element into a noncanon plot element creates plot holes.

edited 26th Dec '12 6:15:54 PM by TobiasDrake

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#2455: Dec 28th 2012 at 6:01:14 AM

I don't see why people knock the Big Green dub.

It was nothing if not Shakespearean.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2456: Dec 28th 2012 at 11:13:38 AM

That's a big trend with Broly's daddy in the Big Green dub.

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#2457: Dec 28th 2012 at 8:13:32 PM

Broly: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- gasp -aaaaaaaaaaa.....

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thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#2458: Dec 28th 2012 at 9:04:40 PM

Now that I think about it, if Krillin got $5,000,000 and had already wasted a half million on Marron alone, he probably would have gone through it himself in not too long.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#2459: Dec 28th 2012 at 10:48:31 PM

[up]In short, the IRS needed to get it back quickly before it was Lost Forever.

What's precedent ever done for us?
UltimatelySubjective Since: Jun, 2011
#2460: Dec 29th 2012 at 4:50:34 AM

So they hired someone to help spend it?

Sound plan. It must have been her knock-out... Errr, Resumé that convinced them this was a good idea.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#2461: Dec 29th 2012 at 6:32:05 AM

I doubt she was under any kind of orders to spend Krillin's money so fast. She just did because she's a horrible person. She tells us this directly. It's the punchline of the joke.

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Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#2462: Dec 30th 2012 at 8:53:59 PM

Yeah, it was all but flat-out stated that anything Marron got Krillin to buy her was just a bonus in what was otherwise a simple undercover operation. You guys are looking too far into it.

Anyway, I thought it was a great episode. A little upsetting that they ended the Garlic Jr. arc so quickly, but then again your average DBZ fan probably doesn't even know who Garlic Jr. is, so no harm in trying to get to the androids as quickly as possible.

edited 30th Dec '12 8:54:16 PM by Watchtower

Saya1 Werefox from Multiverse Since: Oct, 2011
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#2463: Dec 30th 2012 at 9:18:51 PM

And none of us answered Saiga's question. (I can't because I'm in the same boat as him.)

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#2464: Dec 30th 2012 at 9:19:37 PM

Trunks vs. overly-effeminate King Cold should be interesting. Especially if he still asks to see Trunks' sword.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#2465: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:29:06 PM

That fight's always bugged me. Specifically, the abruptness has always bugged me. I've always felt like Toriyama was building up King Cold to be the new Big Bad; there's a bit of foreshadowing of Frieza's parents during the Frieza fight in the same way there's a bit of foreshadowing of the galactic space emperor in the Vegeta fight. Trunks' appearance felt to me like he got as far as Frieza and his father landing on Earth, then went, "...you know what? I'm bored of this story. Time to write something different. Um...AND THEN A SUPER SAIYAN FROM THE FUTURE KILLED FRIEZA, HIS FATHER, AND ALL OF HIS MEN. Alright, new story."

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#2466: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:31:31 PM

You know what would've been nice?

"Well, Goku's off planet and training, and we've just had our collective asses handed to us twice because it's a big universe... maybe we should train too."

And then they allhelped take out Frieza and King Cold's mooks. Oh well.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2467: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:32:39 PM

[up][up] I highly doubt that. Toriyama is a big fan of The Worf Effect, which explains the abruptness, and I don't think he'd reuse the previous Big Bad as the next one nor introduce a Big Bad that's weaker than the last (Cold).

[up] Wouldn't that just make the villain decay even worse?

edited 30th Dec '12 10:33:27 PM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#2468: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:33:24 PM

Also: in the original, Frieza outright tells us that he transforms down, not up. For his race, transformations are a way of limiting power, not raising it.

King Cold dies in Second Form, which means his power is still heavily suppressed. That he is the only character in the entire history of Dragon Ball to die without ever revealing the true extent of his power speaks heavily towards Toriyama just getting sick of the story and wanting to wrap it up quickly.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2469: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:36:07 PM

No, it doesn't. King Cold's "second" form is never confirmed to be that at all, it just looks similar. Freeza describes his forms as something he invented, not the norm for his race. So that's really presumptuous. Even assuming that was the case, it still doesn't mean he radically changed his mind, just that he didn't need Cold at full power since Cold was never an important character to begin with - he was just the guy who rescued Freeza.

edited 30th Dec '12 10:36:44 PM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#2470: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:37:42 PM

He was also supposed to be more powerful than Frieza, as foreshadowed by lines like the one where Frieza notes that the only time he's ever felt pain before was when his father would beat him.

A couple bits of the battle with Frieza set up the idea that King Cold will step out of the shadows as the more powerful galactic emperor behind Frieza. This does not pay off even slightly, and his abrupt and meaningless defeat and abrupt story change for something completely different is disappointing.

edited 30th Dec '12 10:39:12 PM by TobiasDrake

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stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#2471: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:40:59 PM

Whether Toriyama meant that to be Cold's true form or one of the suppression stages, most people, including Toei, assumed it was a suppression stage. Why else would Cooler's equivalent stage look like Freeza's full power form?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2472: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:42:29 PM

No, he was not more powerful. He was weaker. Cold himself admits this - he states that the person that could beat Freeza would be the most powerful in the universe, as that was the position previously held by Freeza. Not Cold.

Oh and his actual line to Goku is that he's the worst person to "get dust" on him in his final form besides his parent(s). Which really means that Cold was, at one point, strong enough to touch him in battle (remember that Vegeta couldn't even manage that).

It should be obvious that this doesn't hint towards Cold being stronger, as Freeza says this to the much weaker Goku who achieved the same feat.

edited 30th Dec '12 10:43:38 PM by Saiga

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#2473: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:42:47 PM

My suggestion doesn't have anything to do with Villain Decay.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2474: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:43:57 PM

I know, but it would certainly cause it.

[up][up][up] I know that, but it's still only an assumption. Since Freeza is a mutant it wouldn't be surprising for him to be different from his father in their "true" forms.

edited 30th Dec '12 10:44:51 PM by Saiga

CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
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#2475: Dec 30th 2012 at 10:48:28 PM

No, he was not more powerful. He was weaker. Cold himself admits this - he states that the person that could beat Freeza would be the most powerful in the universe, as that was the position previously held by Freeza. Not Cold.

Isn't Cooler several times more powerful than Freeza? Or is he not canon?

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