That's because things would be better if they did things my way! Isn't it obvious?
Whoo. I kid, I kid.
I'd have probably destroyed the entire series. I'm a big enough man to admit it.
One Strip! One Strip!Eh, there's a lot to like (or dislike) either way.
Everyone has their preference for tone and types of story so there's nothing wrong with preferring one over the other. I have noticed, however, that people who tend to like pre-Z stuff more often (but obviously not always) come off with this superior tone of "How could anyone like that space alien and beam struggle crap".
A lot of it comes from thinking things changed a lot more than they actually did, I think.
edited 1st Jan '17 4:32:07 PM by LSBK
I like the alien stuff, and beam struggles have been in the series since Goku vs Roshi (kind of...).
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Just because you prefer the half of the series that's more popular, doesn't mean you prefer the half of the series that's necessarily better. Just keep riding that bandwagon.
edited 1st Jan '17 4:45:34 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
But I start reading some criticisms and it starts sounding less like actual critique and more "things would be so much better if they did things my way". And in that case, I start questioning what even attracted people to the series in the first place.
The line between legitimate criticism and simply bemoaning how things don't play out how you want them too tends to be pretty blurred in this fandom I notice.
Yeah I can totally see where you are coming from. It's an issue that bothers me a lot as well, it came up before when we were talking about the human characters (probably a while back now). I feel like a lot of the "this would be better" comments aren't very well thought out, or just don't care what would be lost as long as the one coming up with them gets what they want.
It does get grating, especially when people come up with shallow ideas and act like they're so obvious. People can get really arrogant over their ideas without thinking them through.
And I also get what you mean, when you see someone who wants something RADICALLY different from the series, it does make you wonder why they got attached to this series in particular. That's why I don't brainstorm changes for series I really don't like, because I'd be looking for something completely different out of it. Funny story - one of my friends was comparing Bleach and One Piece, and tried to argue that I liked One Piece more because I never talked about things I would have done differently in OP when I do with Bleach. I pointed out that's because I think One Piece isn't worth the effort needed to make it something I'd really like.
Anywho, I do think you're speaking broadly enough that it could be misconstrued that all criticisms along the line of "I'd rather see this change made" are like that, when they're not (and I'm sure that was not your attention). For instance, I am with you on Gohan's handling, that's something I wish had been done differently among other things in the series. I just try to think about how the changes could work, what would be lost etc without just assuming there is one best way to do things.
But yes, on the final point, I definitely agree that it is a blurred line. Sometimes the expectations people have are unrealistic, inappropriate or outright toxic.
More popular in some circles, less popular in others. In many niche anime fandoms, "pre Z was better" is the bandwagon. Don't delude yourself, popularity has nothing to do with my decision and you are not special.
edited 1st Jan '17 4:48:04 PM by Saiga
Dragon Ball has problems...another problem.
Neutral.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.I respect pre-Z Dragon Ball for a great many things and while I think it has great moments I find it (aside from a few arcs) to be pretty weak in general.
edited 1st Jan '17 5:08:37 PM by LordVatek
This song needs more love.
I think that's a reasonable position. To me, I have a hard time overlooking its flaws and I think the highs aren't enough to make up for it.
From Piccolo Daimao onwards, it has some of the series biggest low points, but the highs are so much greater that I prefer it that way. Consistent quality is good, but being consistently average is not. For me, pre-Z is something I can find enjoyable enough (though the sexism and pervert humour is hard to overlook) but not very rewarding - the pros are relatively even withe cons. Once Daimao shows up, the story becomes much engaging to me, and even though it hits some pretty hard low points in the Freeza - Boo arcs, it gains so much more than that in terms of strengths. The pros heavily outweigh the cons.
Pervert humor isn't a flaw...
Abundance is...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.You're usually so blunt, but you just used a general phrase...
Good to be clear then.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.I admit that Pre-Z isn't absolutely perfect.
Mostly for me...it's...that one thing...y'all know it...
<Ducks a brick>
I think that the Daimao-Saiyan saga era is where everyone is at the point they should have been, you know in terms of how much power they needed (Vegeta was already strong enough to destroy a planet with the right attack.
But I also recognize that if things hadn't escalated with Frieza, his absolute threat wouldn't have worked. I do wish Toriyama had considered letting the Spirit Bomb work at least once before then until he brought it back in the Buu Saga.
Anyway, any other issue I have is admittedly nit-picking (WEN LAUNCH!!!!); stuff where it doesn't matter too much. I do wonder what the series would have been like if he'd saved a few villains or built them up rather then always offing them in the arc they appeared in, or mostly using them as tools (this guy is so powerful...oh shit, now this other dude took them out in one blow...and now Goku / Vegeta / (maybe) Piccolo / Gohan just rekt them. Guess they are totally uber now) to show the pecking order.
That being said, despite all my complaints, I'm not sure if I'd really want Dragonball to change completely. It wouldn't be the series I watched anymore.
...I still think my ideas are better.
<Is bricked>
edited 1st Jan '17 6:06:43 PM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!I really hate this gatekeeping attitude. Just because someone's perfect version of a series is very different from the series that exists doesn't make them not really fans or whatever.
It becomes lacking...they don't feel that way right off the gate...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.This is, the Spirit Bomb did work before. While it wasn't the final blow against Vegeta, it was absolutely necessary to taking him down. People seem to forget that the fight against Vegeta was basically a series of five Hail Marys and three miracles topped with the greatest amount of luck possible. If you remove even one thing from that fight, everyone dies.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!

Personally, I think the series peaked at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, with the Saiyan-Cell area being its lowest and sloppiest point. Super's definitely been far superior to the worst parts of the original run, overall. I should clarify, though, I love the whole series, and any variants in perceived quality over the years are the difference between a 7/10 and a 9/10, so the fluctuation in quality is very minute.